Python Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 All I can really say about this is that I've stopped flying the Dora and gone back to the P-51d, I just much prefer it personally. The overly difficult take off, combined with the need for constant input on the Dora just isn't much fun for me. I find the Mustang offers a nicer feeling of flight also, all personal opinion of course. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Der_Fred Posted August 20, 2014 Share Posted August 20, 2014 Would be cool to be able to request trim while on the ground from the ground crew, and they would set it based on your load out, etc... Nooooo, you don't want to do that.... :-) How's about the P51 gun focal point/harmonisation then ... Now we're talking :-) :-) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ED Team NineLine Posted August 20, 2014 ED Team Share Posted August 20, 2014 Nooooo, you don't want to do that.... :-) How's about the P51 gun focal point/harmonisation then ... Now we're talking :-) :-) Except the guns on the P-51 are harmonized already ;) Forum Rules • My YouTube • My Discord - NineLine#0440• **How to Report a Bug** Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirty Rotten Flieger Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) I'd be happy if ED just fine tuned it a little so it is balanced at cruise. 480km/h at max continuous power at sealevel. At the moment it is not balanced and In real life the guy who delivered it to the front would have told the mechanics that it was a little off and to give it a little right aileron trim. I mean as if the German pilots would just keep flying around in an unbalanced plane when they could just have it adjusted in 5 mins when they landed after discovering the problem. That's what the trim tabs are for. Edited August 21, 2014 by Dirty Rotten Flieger Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foul Ole Ron Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 It's presumably set for the speeds that real Dora pilots would mostly have been cruising around in given that they wouldn't be abusing the engine where they could avoid it in order that they could make it back home. Sim pilots often don't fly within these parameters. We're never that far from a combat zone so it's max continuous (at least) all the way and then fully max once in the fight. So the historically correct settings are generally useless for us. If we were flying long distances on patrol we'd probably appreciate the current settings more. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krupi Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Yes I agree Ron, I am currently making a mission that should force Dora pilots to fly her correctly. I have to say I find it a bit ridiculous that people are asking for trim that didn't exist, but then I was aware of this and never used rudder or aileron trim in the P-51 so I didn't get used to a fully trim aircraft and as soon as you get a decent speed up the aircraft flies true. Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit Project IX Cockpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 If you pick the "Free flight" Quick Mission that comes with the Dora, you'll find it flying at it's trimmed speed and power settings. Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fox One Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 I have to say I find it a bit ridiculous that people are asking for trim that didn't exist, but then I was aware of this and never used rudder or aileron trim in the P-51 so I didn't get used to a fully trim aircraft and as soon as you get a decent speed up the aircraft flies true. The real plane never had auto rudder and takeoff assist - however this is in the sim as an option; do you find that ridiculous too? I was aware of this and never used rudder or aileron trim in the P-51 so I didn't get used to a fully trim aircraft Now that's something I do find ridiculous My DCS videos Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Trimming is an Art, so said my first flight instructor :-) I agree that it would be nice to have an option for setting the aileron, rudder and elevator trim tabs while on ground, but don't forget that it's trial & error. After a setting you need to fly the aircraft and evaluate if it's up to your expectations. If such a feature ever get's implemented in DCS, there should also be a RESET function to allow users to set their trim tabs to the default. Contrarily to the Bf109, the amount of left rudder required at higher speeds / dives is a lot less pronounced in the Fw190, so, it's mainly the need to keep some aileron deflection during flight that can raise some problems, but it is, after all, realistic! Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo. Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 If such a feature ever get's implemented in DCS, there should also be a RESET function to allow users to set their trim tabs to the default. There is a reset trim button for the P-51. ;) I find the trims are working superb in DCS, especially with a force feedback stick. I am trimming my Mustang constantly as i change flight regimes etc. Lack of trims in the Dora is no issue at all though, imho. You just get used to it... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krupi Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) The real plane never had auto rudder and takeoff assist - however this is in the sim as an option; do you find that ridiculous too? Yes I do and I am very happy ED made it a server side setting recently. Now that's something I do find ridiculous Haha... why? I learnt to fly the P-51 trimmed but I knew that the Dora did not have this luxury so I stopped using it in order to get used to the Dora and so far it has worked. At the end of the day, modern light aircraft are still been manufactured with only elevator trim and ground set trim tabs just like the 109 and 190, you really only need full trim for long flights where you don't want to tire the pilots. Edited August 21, 2014 by Krupi Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit Project IX Cockpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo. Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Haha... why? I learnt to fly the P-51 trimmed but I knew that the Dora did not have this luxury so I stopped using it to get used to the Dora and so far it has worked. :lol: Now that's quite hilarious... :D:D As for trims or no trims, I'd say if you compare having them with not having them, then having them is better than not having them. Generally speaking... One thing I really appreciate is seeing how different air forces approach to certain things completely differently (engine management, instruments, everything). One of the luxuries - and challenges in the same time - of us, virtual pilots, is being able to switch between machines at will. :joystick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucic Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 It'll stop the roll but the ball won't be centred so you'll be yawing through the sky generally. I've always found it strange they didn't at least implement rudder trim. All other airforces recognised it as useful to ease pilot workload during extended flight. Pilots who flew captured versions always commented on the absence as a negative trait. The ball does not indicate yaw in straight and level flight trajectory. https://akaagar.github.io/briefing-room-for-dcs/ F-5E simpit project https://forum.dcs.world/topic/318106-f-5e-simpit-cockpit-dimensions-and-flight-controls/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Anatoli-Kagari9 Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 The ball does not indicate yaw in straight and level flight trajectory. Well :-) it indicates sideslip, and gives you an idea of how pronounced it is... Sideslip, in reference to the coordinate system, implies yaw, so indeed, a displaced ball corresponds to yaw. In such an aircraft it usually results from the compensation designed to make the airplane fly coordinated at a given speed / power, and/or to shorten the torque effects specially during takeoff / climb, playing an opposite role when the compensation is no longer required. Yaw does not imply a turn! Flight Simulation is the Virtual Materialization of a Dream... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bucic Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) Well :-) it indicates sideslip, and gives you an idea of how pronounced it is... Sideslip, in reference to the coordinate system, implies yaw, so indeed, a displaced ball corresponds to yaw. In such an aircraft it usually results from the compensation designed to make the airplane fly coordinated at a given speed / power, and/or to shorten the torque effects specially during takeoff / climb, playing an opposite role when the compensation is no longer required. Yaw does not imply a turn! Uhm...nope :) http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=1044674&highlight=fella#post1044674 http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=910996&highlight=fella#post910996 http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=862983&highlight=fella#post862983 http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=862983&highlight=fella#post862983 http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=862899&highlight=fella#post862899 Again, in straight flight trajectory (or straight trajectory flight), e.g. in a stable cruise flight, the ball does not indicat neither yaw nor side slip. Ball fixation is one thing but please don't use pear pressure to tell the ball it should indicate what it can't ;) Edited August 21, 2014 by Bucic https://akaagar.github.io/briefing-room-for-dcs/ F-5E simpit project https://forum.dcs.world/topic/318106-f-5e-simpit-cockpit-dimensions-and-flight-controls/ Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ZaltysZ Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 It is possible to emulate ground adjustable trimming by using axis tuning in DCS as separate aircraft have separate profiles in DCS. Let's say you want to adjust rudder. Go to controls screen, choose rudder axis, click AXIS TUNE, then mark "Slider" and "User Curve" checkboxes. Move half of sliders (including the center one) up or down depending on direction you want the axis to be trimmed to. Then be amazed (or not) how having handsoff luxury in flight can complicate your takeoffs and landings :D Wir sehen uns in Walhalla. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.ZG15_FALKE Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 (edited) most profiler software of joysticks are able to do the job, :joystick: no need to do an allmighty implementation into the software, especially when this is going to eat up hours and hours to a doubtful effect? You´re not going to fly for hours straight and level, in the heat of the fight there will be no differnce to a non trimmed crate, since p-factor, AoA, speed and tourque will change in every moment. Edited August 21, 2014 by I./ZG15_FALKE Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Krupi Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 most profiler software of joysticks is able to do the job, :joystick: no need to do an allmighty implementation into the software, especially when this is going to eat up hours and hours to what effect? You´re not going to fly for hours straight and level, in the heat of the fight there will be no differnce to a non trimmed crate, since p-factor, AoA, speed and tourque will change in every moment. Exactly, the P-51's needed the trims the short range "interceptor" Dora, no... Both ME/BF and FW focused on minimizing the pilot work load so clearly to them rudder and aileron were not worth 1) Taxing the pilot 2) Increased manufacturing capability/production rate Windows 10 Pro | ASUS RANGER VIII | i5 6600K @ 4.6GHz| MSI RTX 2060 SUPER | 32GB RAM | Corsair H100i | Corsair Carbide 540 | HP Reverb G2 | MFG crosswind Pedals | Custom Spitfire Cockpit Project IX Cockpit Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rrohde Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Found this interesting tidbit on wikipedia: [...]Take off was easy; 10° of flap and power to 2,700 rpm and 23.5 lb in. boost made the run very similar to the Spitfire IX. Un-stick was found to be 112 mph and the fighter had a habit of swinging to port. Speed in the climb was set at 161 mph, a rate of 3,000 feet per minute. Brown praised the lack of trimming requirements in flight. However, Brown criticised the lack of trim controls. If a member of the ground crew had moved the tab, or it had been adjusted from another source, it could result in an out-of-trim flight performance at high speeds.[...] Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Focke-Wulf_Fw_190_operational_history 1 PC: AMD Ryzen 9 5950X | MSI Suprim GeForce 3090 TI | ASUS Prime X570-P | 128GB DDR4 3600 RAM | 2TB Samsung 870 EVO SSD | Win10 Pro 64bit Gear: HP Reverb G2 | JetPad FSE | VKB Gunfighter Pro Mk.III w/ MCG Ultimate VKBcontrollers.com Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wolf Rider Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 It is possible to emulate ground adjustable trimming by using axis tuning in DCS as separate aircraft have separate profiles in DCS. Let's say you want to adjust rudder. Go to controls screen, choose rudder axis, click AXIS TUNE, then mark "Slider" and "User Curve" checkboxes. Move half of sliders (including the center one) up or down depending on direction you want the axis to be trimmed to. Then be amazed (or not) how having handsoff luxury in flight can complicate your takeoffs and landings :D Ideally, I believe it be cheesy to change trim whilst in flight, which assigning tabs to buttons/ axis would allow, if it wasn't possible on the real world aircraft :music_whistling: City Hall is easier to fight, than a boys' club - an observation :P "Resort is had to ridicule only when reason is against us." - Jefferson "Give a group of potheads a bunch of weed and nothing to smoke out of, and they'll quickly turn into engineers... its simply amazing." EVGA X99 FTW, EVGA GTX980Ti FTW, i7 5930K, 16Gb Corsair Dominator 2666Hz, Windows 7 Ultimate 64Bit, Intel 520 SSD x 2, Samsung PX2370 monitor and all the other toys - "I am a leaf on the wind, watch how I soar" Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Robo. Posted August 21, 2014 Share Posted August 21, 2014 Exactly, the P-51's needed the trims the short range "interceptor" Dora, no... Well, I'd say it's matter of doctrine. Even earlier LW designs that were used for bomber escort (e.g. Bf 109E in Battle of Britain) did not have rudder trim. And even early American models did have all three axes trimable (e.g. P-39, which was also designed as short range interceptor and even had very similar range to Fw 190D-9). Same like with landing lights or mixture control or throttle in case of French and Italian air forces. Not saying which is better, I believe it is all down to what you're used to ... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kurfürst Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 The answer as to why is simple - aircraft under 5 tons did not require rudder trim in Germany. Thus neither the 109 or 190 had them, with some exceptions (there were some bad weather variants with course setting auto pilot managing the rudder). Larger aircraft had them, like 110 etc. 1 http://www.kurfurst.org - The Messerschmitt Bf 109 Performance Resource Site Vezérünk a bátorság, Kísérőnk a szerencse! -Motto of the RHAF 101st 'Puma' Home Air Defense Fighter Regiment The Answer to the Ultimate Question of the K-4, the Universe, and Everything: Powerloading 550 HP / ton, 1593 having been made up to 31th March 1945, 314 K-4s were being operated in frontline service on 31 January 1945. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HugePanic Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 in order to proof that DCS is a good simulator, i have to request a BF-110 to proof that Kurfürst is right!! :pilotfly: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sceptre Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 In IL-2 1946 this was the case ) RTX 2070 8GB | 32GB DDR4 2666 RAM | AMD Ryzen 5 3600 4.2Ghz | Asrock X570 | CH Fighterstick/Pro Throttle | TM MFDs | TrackIR 5 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
I.ZG15_FALKE Posted August 22, 2014 Share Posted August 22, 2014 in order to proof that DCS is a good simulator, i have to request a BF-110 to proof that Kurfürst is right!! :pilotfly: Oh Yeeessss! 110 rulez! Had so much fun in IL2 with that beast!:joystick: Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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