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Nose Fuze Settings INV Page


Kimi_uy

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After reading "A-10s over Kosovo" I got worked up on airburst mk-82's, and I know in the INV page of the LDGP bombs you can select different fuzes for the nose and tail.

Excuse me for being lazy but i couldn't find any intel on how this works or if it's implemented at all. I tried changing some of the stuff but no aparent changes were seen on impacts.:doh:

 

This also brings another question, don't IAMs have the possibility to select settings as speed of impact and angle of impact?

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Fuze settings as far as airburst or delay aren't modeled on the A-10.

 

IAMs, more specifically JDAMs use a very simplistic function in DCS, while in real life several additional parameters can be inputted into the weapons profile. I don't know if this was part of the agreement ED had, or because of classified reasons or if it is truly part of the early A-10C Suite 3 represented in DCS. RL A-10s are on Suite 7 or maybe 8 already.

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You can drop the Mk.82 AIR like a standard low drag Mk.82 by selecting Nose fuse only and configuring it as low drag in the inventory page of DSMS.

TBH I haven't really tried any other thing regarding fusing, mostly bombs hit nose first...

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

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Fuze settings as far as airburst or delay aren't modeled on the A-10.

 

IAMs, more specifically JDAMs use a very simplistic function in DCS, while in real life several additional parameters can be inputted into the weapons profile. I don't know if this was part of the agreement ED had, or because of classified reasons or if it is truly part of the early A-10C Suite 3 represented in DCS. RL A-10s are on Suite 7 or maybe 8 already.

 

Yeah, i was afraid that that would be the answer. But does it sound logical to skip fuzes because of "classified" purposes, and then modeling the CBUs in? I'm inclined to think that the settings on a cbu-97/105 would be far more secret than a dumb mk-82...

Also, the airburst fuzes were used way before the upgrade to the C variant.

 

I've seen videos in youtube of airburst mk82's being followed by another one with impact fuze and daaaayuuuum that looks nasty.


Edited by Kimi_uy
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You can drop the Mk.82 AIR like a standard low drag Mk.82 by selecting Nose fuse only and configuring it as low drag in the inventory page of DSMS.

TBH I haven't really tried any other thing regarding fusing, mostly bombs hit nose first...

 

Changing the mk-82 AIR settings ain't much of a bit deal. My concern was about nose fuze settings in detail and not just nose, tail or N/T. And yes, it would be a waste of energy to have a bomba flip to hit tail first.

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I don't think it was a classified reason at all. I'm thinking the military didn't require the proximity fuze to be modeled. Therefore ED didn't model it. It would be easy to do though. Its the same nose fuze basically as the Cbu's use. A MK82 drops the same regardless of fuzing, So the military wouldn't have needed an extra fuze option to train with.

 

 

As for bombs hitting nose first. A fuze arms the bomb the impact detonates the bomb. It doesn't matter were the fuse is when the bomb hits the ground, if the fuze armed it, it goes boom.

 

 

 

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  • 2 weeks later...
Im curious to know' date=' and I always wondered - why exactly is it even a option to choose which fuse to use?[/quote']

 

IRL, u can only set the fuzes on the ground, so if it's not even modelled in the sim it shouldn't be an option to toggle through them, right?

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The fuze selection in the DSMS INV page is what it says: the inventory of what is actually loaded. If you load the same weapon but with different fuzes, somehow someone has to tell the aircraft about it. That is all.

 

That we have usually only exact one fuze option per weapon in DCS is an other story.

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The fuze selection in the DSMS INV page is what it says: the inventory of what is actually loaded. If you load the same weapon but with different fuzes, somehow someone has to tell the aircraft about it. That is all.

 

That we have usually only exact one fuze option per weapon in DCS is an other story.

 

I was thinking kinda like the forced LGB laser code that can be changed on the fly. And with the Mk-82 the N/T shouldn't be available to set in cockpit right?

 

I don't get why they didn't add that in the mission editor/planner.

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I think you can change whatever you want in the real airplane, but its a question of whether you would normally.

 

The thing is you have to understand that this isn't just about a single sortie drop and go home, the systems are designed with hot loading in mind for multiple sorties per engine start in a hot conflict. In that case I'm not sure the A-10 jocks would be hopping out of their still running jets to plug their MDCs into laptops so that they can load everything correctly for the next sortie. If the hot loading involves adding different weapons to the last sortie they would need I assume a method for loading different fuzing types and such in order for all of those delivery calculations to work out. The symbology displayed during dive bombs takes into account fuzing in order to ensure it tells the pilot if he's going to fly through his own frag pattern.

 

There's also the fact that you can drop Mk82AIRs without the ballute so live adjustments do seem like a factor in this too.

 

But I don't know anything as a fact thats all conjecture. Someone who understands real operations could verify if any of that is correct.

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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AFAIK, the way in works on the A-10 ( F-16 and F-117 also) is, fuzes are installed and set by AMMO guys ( they set up the delays if any, among other things), check by weapons loaders ( different than AMMO) and re-checked by pilots on walk around prior to flight (in the USAF, not sure about others). There are many configurations between bomb body, tail fins and fuzes and the aircraft does not know what is loaded until the pilots tells it in the DSMS (SMS in F-16) You can actually damage some weapons or some weapons pylons if you enter the wrong weapons on a station. The aircraft needs to know the weapons specifics for several reasons ( pull up ques, calculating impact point, release point, etc.)

 

Some weapons can be loaded with different fuses so the pilot can change the effect of that weapon on target if need be. They can do this if the weapons have two fuzes set for different settings on the nose and tail. One might be delayed, one fuze might be timed. Some newer weapons have the ability/ capability for pilots to change their setting on the air through the DSMS/SMS page.

 

The way that most fuses are activated is by cable or wire. This cables are attached to the pylons and activate fuzes, seeker heads, fin, etc. When the bomb is thrown from the aircraft ( now a day, they a literally thrown from the aircraft, they are not just released) a cable my activate a nose radar ( commonly used for air burst weapons) or a timer or an impact fuze. After activation, some fuzes use internal batteries, some have a small wind mill or propeller ( not sure the actual terminology).

 

I hat a more detail explanation but before I hit post I accidentally refresh the page. I did not feel like re writing the whole things, hope this make since.

 

For the original post,

To get air burst Mk-82 you need nose mounted radar or barometric fuzes which AFAIK, are not modeled in DCS for the MK-82/84 nor JDAMS.


Edited by mvsgas

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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I think you can change whatever you want in the real airplane, but its a question of whether you would normally.

 

The thing is you have to understand that this isn't just about a single sortie drop and go home, the systems are designed with hot loading in mind for multiple sorties per engine start in a hot conflict. In that case I'm not sure the A-10 jocks would be hopping out of their still running jets to plug their MDCs into laptops so that they can load everything correctly for the next sortie. If the hot loading involves adding different weapons to the last sortie they would need I assume a method for loading different fuzing types and such in order for all of those delivery calculations to work out. The symbology displayed during dive bombs takes into account fuzing in order to ensure it tells the pilot if he's going to fly through his own frag pattern.

 

There's also the fact that you can drop Mk82AIRs without the ballute so live adjustments do seem like a factor in this too.

 

But I don't know anything as a fact thats all conjecture. Someone who understands real operations could verify if any of that is correct.

 

 

You do have a solid point in terms of hot rearming and updating manually the inventory.

 

@mvsgas,

 

Yeah, I'd love to have airbursts but well, I think they ought to fix the damage model before they even touch the airburst fusing.

But taking into account what they have modelled (suite 3??) I think even the mk-82AIR would have to be set by they ammo guys with "nuts and bolts".


Edited by Kimi_uy
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Here is a link to a power point about air bomb fuzes

http://www.dtic.mil/ndia/2006fuze/tobik.pdf

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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Yeah, I'd love to have airbursts but well, I think they ought to fix the damage model before they even touch the airburst fusing.

 

Most of the value of an airbust Mk82 would be lost without a fragmentation model. It would be nice though to have it also create lots of smoke so it could be used for marking targets ala Kosovo.

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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After reading "A-10s over Kosovo" I got worked up on airburst mk-82's...

 

Most of the value of an airbust Mk82 would be lost without a fragmentation model. It would be nice though to have it also create lots of smoke so it could be used for marking targets ala Kosovo.

 

Exactly that was what got me stirred up on this!

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mvsgas got this completely right, as a aircraft mechanic in the military I can just confirm what he posted before. Arming, preparing and dropping MK-82s for example is a lot more than just loading up a bomb on whatever station and dropping it wherever you want to have it. There are safety and arming wires for example that need to be hung into the loading station to ensure that it arms itself while releasing it from that before mentioned station. There are also settings that need to be configured by the arming crews on the ground before taking it into the sky and towards the range. Not every plane can adjust its LD/HD times for example during flight, this needs to be done on the ground on the detonator itself. Also did you knew that there are fixed configurations on how to set it up on a mass deployment? If you drop multiple bombs f.e there is a chance that they will collide into each other while dropping them, to ensure that they don't detonate while colliding the arming delay time is set longer than on a single drop.

 

Hell I can write a whole book about this, I hope I made this a little clearer though, there are way more settings you can make on guided and unguided bombs, I guess it's just not implemented due to classification reasons.

 

If there are more questions just let me know.

DCS F-14 Tomcat Alley Discord Server:

 

 

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Thanks Lt. Seahawk and Mvsgas for the intel :)

Now another question arises... The offset and velocity of ejection that can be set in the bombs, this is still an area i need to dig in to. I'll do some "RTFM" but if anyone knows more than what's in the manual I'll really appreciate.

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Thanks Lt. Seahawk and Mvsgas for the intel :)

Now another question arises... The offset and velocity of ejection that can be set in the bombs, this is still an area i need to dig in to. I'll do some "RTFM" but if anyone knows more than what's in the manual I'll really appreciate.

 

Unfortunately, I do not know specifics on this. AFAIK ( and I am completely guessing here) just more setting used to increase CCRP/CCIP aiming precision. Your not telling the aircraft how to offset the station or how fast to eject the weapons, instead your telling the aircraft how fast the weapons will be ejected and how off the aiming on that station will be. The aircraft computers will use this information to better aim the reticules. ( hope this makes since to you guys)

 

Talking about the "velocity of ejection"

As I mention, many weapons are thrown from the aircraft, not just released. To do this, many weapons racks (MERs. TERs, MAU-12, etc.) use cartridges. Think of cartridges as big shut gun shells. This generate gas that it's used to both open the hooks that hold the weapons and also extent the ejector feet that throw the weapon. (Follow me so far?) Now, this gases are regulated or control with "orifices" installed on the racks. Think of "orifices" as valves. This are change depending on the bombs installed ( and several other factors). So for example, for "weapons A" would use the orifice # on the front hook/ ejector feet and orifice ## on the back. This will determine the force and speed of the ejector feet. Now, pilots get this information from manuals specific for that aircraft. This is one of the many reasons aircraft spend so many years testing a specific weapons from different stations during different flying conditions.

 

Now about offset

Each aircraft will have a specific pattern or aim group ( like when you shoot a gun) So aircraft go through "boresight" ( another subject I know little about) This is basically to make sure the aiming "symbology" on the HUD matches to where the weapons stations are aiming. Additionally, since your looking though the canopy/windshield, this will affect the aiming point and without the "boresight" correction to the aiming points you would never have precision bombing with unguided weapons.

 

So, AFAIK, this setting are to help aiming, but since I am guessing on all of this, I am probably completely wrong.

To whom it may concern,

I am an idiot, unfortunately for the world, I have a internet connection and a fondness for beer....apologies for that.

Thank you for you patience.

 

 

Many people don't want the truth, they want constant reassurance that whatever misconception/fallacies they believe in are true..

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You're exactly correct on both subjects.

 

The settings in question are never modified by the pilot, however. The aircraft-specific values necessary for accurate boresighting and ballistics are stored in non-volatile memory of the IFFCC/CICU. Any values entered into the HUD menu would be added to the stored values, resulting in erroneous data.

 

The values in the HUD menu are only used in rare circumstances to correct for known deficiencies that affect the whole fleet. For instance, an IFFCC error resulted in high-drag AIRs going long, so a temporary fix was to adjust the Offset and Ejection Velocity settings until the software could be updated.

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Gotcha.

Shouldn't these values be different for each station/pylon/rack?

And, are these values zeroed by default for each station?

 

I'm guessing all this is not even modelled in the sim.

It's funny, the first time i heard about this sim it was like "WOW it's like real thing!" and once I started digging into it more and more I realized how much stuff is missing/not functional/useless in a sim :p

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.

Gotcha.

Shouldn't these values be different for each station/pylon/rack?

They are. The INV pages are all about the pylons.

And, are these values zeroed by default for each station?

As was mentioned earlier, the actual values are kept in the internal memory somewhere. What you see in the INV page are additional correction factors which default to 0.

I'm guessing all this is not even modelled in the sim.

Afaik you guessed right.

It's funny, the first time i heard about this sim it was like "WOW it's like real thing!" and once I started digging into it more and more I realized how much stuff is missing/not functional/useless in a sim :p

Welcome to DCS World! :D

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