Jump to content

Air-to-Air Missile Discussion


Shein

Recommended Posts

We were talking about seekers, not rocket motors.

 

Rocket motors are still being worked on by several people, and your rant about them here is both misplaced and completely un-necessary. At some point the new rocket motor tuning will be released into the wild, and if you still have complaints then, feel free to voice them.

 

your constant justifications not justify the catastrophic performance of Russian Missiles

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Patience, lots of research, and developing a very careful and keen understanding of what it is you should believe and what you should not believe of all the things that you read.

 

Better yet, start learning about rocketry, radars, IR ...

 

All of this needs to be tempered some by people who actually know about things, but it's very difficult to get information from them, for what are probably obvious reasons :)

 

@GGTharos and Teknetinium

 

 

Guys this is a Hell of a read, I am a retired Logistic Analyst/PC. Tech. and had little time to study the weapons systems of my Sim. Hobby turned Passion.

 

How did you guys learn so much about the systems like this!!!??? Outstanding!

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I don't know, but it may well happen. That, however was not the point of my question.

 

If you do see F-18's and F-15's running around with AIM-9X, TBH other than restricting those missiles in public servers (keep in mind, they are immune to flares and you don't get to have an on-board DIRCM to use against them) there's not much you can do.

 

Even there are more advanced MiGs and Sues, you still have the problem of AIM-9X is not decoyable, R-73 is.

 

Of course as you know, this part only matter if you're playing chicken. An IR missile usually succeeds because the other guy didn't see you launch it. :)

 

Is it not comming for DCS F-18C?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Air to Air missile change accordingly to Chiz suggestions, where ER-27 reach the target from 25km 2,5 seconds faster then AIM-120C I have nothing to complain about.

 

Me and Frostie tested AIM-120C against ER-27 in this new conditions,

where Aim-120C had around 30% better hit ratio against heavy chaff and a beaming bandit at 45°. That is acceptable if you ask me. Anything more than 30% at beaming 45° will make the multiplayer environment not represent realistic reactions by pilots.


Edited by Teknetinium

Teknetinium 2017.jpg
                        51st PVO Discord SATAC YouTube
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

We were talking about seekers, not rocket motors.

.

 

 

We are talking about the Missiles, and the 80 % of this thread is about how bad have become the russian Missiles with the new DCS World.

 

We have made already a thread only for russian Missiles and this threat was censored and has been assembled with this thread, so the requesting continue here.

 

I know you dont like that, but this is a tipical reaction when something is unfair.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

@GGTharos and Teknetinium

 

 

Guys this is a Hell of a read, I am a retired Logistic Analyst/PC. Tech. and had little time to study the weapons systems of my Sim. Hobby turned Passion.

 

How did you guys learn so much about the systems like this!!!??? Outstanding!

 

Some learned others just speculated :D be aware.

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If you didn't know.

You can use EOS/IRST and Helmet with IR lock, then hold the Launch button for the ER and the Radar will turn on automatically and launch it.

Any more rhetorical questions?

 

 

 

You can wait on Chizh all you want, but he's not going to make the ER into an EA lol

Those were the 15 minutes of fame for the Flankers before LOMAC 1.02 :P

 

And maybe you just haven't been using them to their full potential?

Your altitude must be below the target's to maintain a stable track for the SARH.

Again, you can launch them with EOS lock initially.

 

The multiplayer with the latencies involved, may have a larger impact on the SARH and IRH missiles. But again, ER is from 1985 and 120C is from 1995, so the technology difference is accurately represented in DCS.

 

Good luck fighting BVR with EOS. What you describe is dysfunctional, not how the platform was intended to be used, and suicidal. Also you should watch my previous tracks. Ptrack 40% despite head on and look up attitude.

 

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=1895120&postcount=824

 

I have fired enough ERs in game to know how they react.


Edited by ///Rage

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron

Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron

TS: 195.201.110.22

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If Air to Air missile change accordingly to Chiz suggestions, where ER-27 reach the target from 25km 2,5 seconds faster then AIM-120C I have nothing to complain about.

 

Me and Frostie tested AIM-120C against ER-27 in this new conditions,

where Aim-120C had around 30% better hit ratio against heavy chaff and a beaming bandit at 45°. That is acceptable if you ask me. Anything more than 30% at beaming 45° will make the multiplayer environment not represent realistic reactions by pilots.

 

The ER in game is already slightly faster than the 120C. The catch is they have to launched in near equal parameters (airspeed & altitude). This is however not an advantageous method of attack against an F-15, since in most cases the 120 will be going active with enough time to the F-15 to go completely defensive. The F-15 was designed to be advantageous at BVR, yet Russian pilots what to try and play the F-15s game. Any time I see a SU or MiG coming at me at angels 18+ or climbing at me, I'm like "Thank you and good night".

 

On the hand I realize I'm in a sketchy position if one gets inside of 13nm with my speed and altitude below a certain point, because then I have to start to play their game. The ET is a real threat as a medium range IR missile, and will get the novice eagle pilot all of the time. I'm only gonna merge with a Russian for 1 of 3 reasons: I get jumped, I made mistakes in BVR, or I'm feeling particularly bold that day.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ER in game is already slightly faster than the 120C. The catch is they have to launched in near equal parameters (airspeed & altitude). This is however not an advantageous method of attack against an F-15, since in most cases the 120 will be going active with enough time to the F-15 to go completely defensive. The F-15 was designed to be advantageous at BVR, yet Russian pilots what to try and play the F-15s game. Any time I see a SU or MiG coming at me at angels 18+ or climbing at me, I'm like "Thank you and good night".

 

On the hand I realize I'm in a sketchy position if one gets inside of 13nm with my speed and altitude below a certain point, because then I have to start to play their game. The ET is a real threat as a medium range IR missile, and will get the novice eagle pilot all of the time. I'm only gonna merge with a Russian for 1 of 3 reasons: I get jumped, I made mistakes in BVR, or I'm feeling particularly bold that day.

 

Its all relative. I have used R-27 from a higher altitude and seen people use the R-27 series successfully at high altitudes too. Even if they missed, the amount of time spent in defensive might be enough to close up for higher probability shots. You can do it alone but it is more effective to use at least a wingman and shoot in turns.

 

It was mostly effective since most people -even F-15 drivers - like to fly low for the ground clutter but loosing one dimension and energy to escape (2 trade offs for a single advantage).

 

Note I used past tense. Right now barrel-roll-no-matter-what and send a heat seeker in the face for any plane. when Missiles are brought up to proper levels the BVR chicken run will once again be possible.


Edited by Pilotasso

[sigpic]http://forums.eagle.ru/signaturepics/sigpic4448_29.gif[/sigpic]

My PC specs below:

Case: Corsair 400C

PSU: SEASONIC SS-760XP2 760W Platinum

CPU: AMD RYZEN 3900X (12C/24T)

RAM: 32 GB 4266Mhz (two 2x8 kits) of trident Z RGB @3600Mhz CL 14 CR=1T

MOBO: ASUS CROSSHAIR HERO VI AM4

GFX: GTX 1080Ti MSI Gaming X

Cooler: NXZT Kraken X62 280mm AIO

Storage: Samsung 960 EVO 1TB M.2+6GB WD 6Gb red

HOTAS: Thrustmaster Warthog + CH pro pedals

Monitor: Gigabyte AORUS AD27QD Freesync HDR400 1440P

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I have fired enough ERs in game to know how they react.

 

Rocks with a rocket engine in the back and a magnet for finding planes on the front?

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The F-15 was designed to be advantageous at BVR, yet Russian pilots want to try and play the F-15s game. Any time I see a SU or MiG coming at me at angels 18+ or climbing at me, I'm like "Thank you and good night".

 

If that's the case, then I guess you have not flown against a competent Russian driver as yet. I've seen ER shots taken nearly at Rmax and get hits against F-15's (maybe not in the current version as it stands)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

If that's the case, then I guess you have not flown against a competent Russian driver as yet. I've seen ER shots taken nearly at Rmax and get hits against F-15's (maybe not in the current version as it stands)

 

Nothing could be further from the truth there. I've flown against many good Russian drivers. Many of them I can identify by their tactics, and adjust mine accordingly. I know when someone is firing at me at or near Rmax, and approach without panic. Obviously that's when I can be absolutely sure the guy I have on Radar is the one engaging me. Of the few mistakes I end up making in BVR, flying face first into an ER fired Rmax is never one of them.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

One question to you Expert, how the F-15C TEWS is 100% sure than a SARH missile (like R-27ER) was launched? in fact he can only receive the lock from the enemy aircraft, the real prove is that in Kosovo war Lt. Col. Dale Zelko's plane received two older SA-3 missiles and he never knew what was coming, in his own words! even with a better TEWS than the F-15C simulated in FC3. Another prove is that in the gulf war two F-15 approach ahead to two irakies MIG-29 and one of the F-15C (Lt. Col Rico Rodriguez), received the lock from one MIG-29 and inmediately began evasing maneuvers because he thought that a missile was launched, NOT by the TEWS signal!. (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dJHMZimHH9M)

 

That's is what we want for the russian missiles, not to repair the flight course or chaff evasion etc, but the SARH missiles dont emit any signal and the american TEWS show the warning from the very moment the missile was shot, that's is wrong.

 

Thanks!


Edited by JunMcKill
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some modern RWRs (including the F-15's) did not cover those lower-band radars well, or not at all. It took a very long time for the F-15 to cover this band. F-15E's have been lost to SA-2s because of this when their EA support evaporated. This has zero effect on fighter radars and AAMs as those RWRs are designed to cover specifically the bands used by those modern fighter-borne fire-control radars.

 

Regarding the F-15 evading the MiG, that is exactly what you are supposed to do when you're 4nm head to head and you get a spike. It's also a standard drag and bag tactic.

 

SARH missiles don't emit anything, the radars guiding them do. Real RWRs use multiple criteria to provide a missile launch warning, and as a hint to you, STT and signal strength are the minimum criteria - more betraying factoids are radars switching into guidance waveforms and possibly emitting an M-link.

 

You're talking technology that you do not understand.

 

There's not going to be AAM SARH missiles that don't give you a missile launch warning when they are launched in this game ... you can forget that idea right now.


Edited by GGTharos

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because it is convenient to your F-15 clients GG, not for reality, and dont tell me that I dont understand the missile technologyif you dont know who I am, I was IT investigator in the Cuban Armed forces in the 80s and we did a lot of upgrades to russian missiles and the R-27 predescesor the R-24R which was used succesfully in Angola in those years!. The radar STT emition does not change when the missile is launched than then one that lock you, if you dont want to see facts and listen to the real protagonistics in those combats, is another thing!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The radar STT emition does not change when the missile is launched than then one that lock you, ....

 

Now, that is interesting.

Asus Z390 Code XI, i9-9900K, RAM 32 Gig Corsair Vengeance @ 3200, RTX 2080 TI FE, TIR 5, Samsung 970 EVO 1TB, HOTAS WH, ASUS ROG Swift PG279Q, HTC Vive Pro, Win 10 x64

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because we have SME's from both sides telling us so, and because more complex behavior cannot be currently modeled.

 

This is more along the lines of what is more convenient to you, not me, or 'my clients', whoever those might be. Imagine if AIM-120's didn't trip RWRs ... which according to certain testimonies might be the case more often than people would like ;)

 

Because it is convenient to your F-15 clients GG,

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look, the AIM-120B and AIM-120C looks well modelled, the F-15C launch both in TWS mode and you dont know what is coming until the C become pitbull, let me tell you, I like that! it's more close to real life! but please, do the same with the R-27R or the R-77 it's not fair with the soviet technology and AAM doctrine.

 

If you see now the roster of any server, there are guys in F-15C with 17 kills and only 7 or 8 deaths (some guys really excelent pilots like Spade 17-1!!! WOW!), in the red side the best one: 4 or 5 kills versus 8 deaths! LOL!

Link to comment
Share on other sites

None of the missiles are really well modeled (depending on your definition of modeling things well). Further, neither are RWRs. There is a huge amount of information missing from the F-15's TEWS for example.

 

The sim is simply not capable of doing better right now - you will have to wait for DCS modules, and we'll be lucky to see deeply modeled things even then.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Look, the AIM-120B and AIM-120C looks well modelled, the F-15C launch both in TWS mode and you dont know what is coming until the C become pitbull, let me tell you, I like that! it's more close to real life! but please, do the same with the R-27R or the R-77 it's not fair with the soviet technology and AAM doctrine.

 

If you see now the roster of any server, there are guys in F-15C with 17 kills and only 7 or 8 deaths (some guys really excelent pilots like Spade 17-1!!! WOW!), in the red side the best one: 4 or 5 kills versus 8 deaths! LOL!

 

Hello!

 

roster is not a reason to change anything, its a consecvence of people thinking they are equal with 27er against an amraam. the problem is that in game you dont really die and your aircraft is 0$. so no problem if you die :-) IRL an eagle would turn away screaming if launched upon, because the other six was coming behind him. people tend to forget this while taking off. I assume You are not one of them, regarding where you worked.

 

anyway, good to have you here!


Edited by 59th_LeFty

[sIGPIC]http://www.forum.lockon.ru/signaturepics/sigpic5279_1.gif[/sIGPIC]

I could shot down a Kitchen :smartass:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

To add what JunMcKill said about Russian missile STT lock/missile launch, I've come to same info that when you are locked by Russian radar there is no difference when he fires the missile... the moment you are locked you have to consider that you are being fired on. Now knowing this (coming from 2 different, and I'd call fairly safe/reliable source) I'd believe this to be true... and having this in sim would change quite a lot how you react when being locked by MiG or Flanker.

No longer active in DCS...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

please, do the same with the R-27R or the R-77 it's not fair with the soviet technology and AAM doctrine.

 

 

Great, the guys with the TV screens that show them were the enemy are without turning their radar on are complaining about fairness!

 

Funny how you never see F-15 drivers on here crying to get EOS installed... but the place is rammed full of Russian drivers who want American performance from their missiles!

 

Fairness! Fairness???

 

 

Please..... your in the wrong game!

  • Like 1

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



104th Phoenix Wing Commander / Total Poser / Elitist / Hero / Chad

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...