2013 Virtual Hawgsmoke

Hey guys!

I got some questions!

1. LAR. What does the "slant" range means?

Minimum slant range is 4,000 feet

2. HATR.

How should i understand this?

3. LAS.

what about this?

4. 2.8

What does it mean?

Addition:

5. Can i change waypoints(anyone) elevation?

6. Can i switch FPM to manual?

Yeah come on matey, calm down. This is an International event for sure and we all are looking forward to it. Don't misconstrude my comment as a formal response but an observation. If your vfs is unable to engage targets using the methods that should be / dictated as per the event SOP, then perhaps reading the manual, researching and practicing should be your first port of call??

Laud gave me the type of answer I asked for Tyger...

Thank you for your kind sugesstions... but none of the delivery methods from the SOP are covered in detail in the manual, that is why I asked for tracks in the first place...

There is no "matey" here... you are continuing to offend me & my squadron Tyger...

You see how many questions does AfkMan have? And he is an instructor in his squadron... and a really good one...

I hope now you understand why I asked for them tracks or vids...

You see how many questions does AfkMan have? And he is an instructor in his squadron... and a really good one...

 

I hope now you understand why I asked for them tracks or vids...

Thx man, glad to see you again=)

Hm... I got a vid for a 45DB.

 

http://www.virtual-jabog32.de/downloads/pub/Laud/Video/45DB_Beta01.avi

Want some constructive criticism?

Next time, setup your profile on the ground, so you don't have to screw with the DSMS while you're flying.

During the roll-in for a 45 HADB, don't pull the power back to idle or you'll end up too slow. Stand the throttles up at mid-range.

You had your track set okay, but you were more than 15° shallow, 500ft high, and 50kt slow at release. The abort window is +/- 5° from planned, and +/- 25kt, so that first pass should have been aborted.

The SEM started out great with a 4g pull, but then fell apart. Make sure the TVV stays within 2° of the horizon, and get back up to 4g for at least 60° of turn. You just kind of "floundered" there while you tried to score your own bombs.

Never, ever, try to score your own bombs. Fly the airplane.

The second pass looked better, I think you were only 10° shallow and 40kt slow. But that SEM was all over the place. 6.5g's and a chopped tone mean you're pulling too hard. You ended the second SEM the same as the first, with the nose high, and insufficient G.

It's the details! :book: :smartass::joystick:

Hey guys!

I got some questions!

1. LAR. What does the "slant" range means?

 

2. HATR.

 

8.2.2. High Altitude Tactical Rocket (HATR)

Tactical delivery with a slant range at release of 10,000 feet or greater from the target. Minimum recovery altitude is 4,500ft AGL.

Profile Settings: M274, CCIP, RPL SGL 7, Min Alt 100

Planned delivery: 45° offset, 10000ft AGL Run-in @250KIAS, 3 NM Base, 30° Dive

Release @6000ft AGL, 1.7 NM

Safe Escape: Turn Level Turn

Delivery Scoring Criteria: Alt 1000 +/- 250ft & dive angle 10° at release = 10 pts

Alt 1000 +/- 500ft & dive angle 5-15° at release = 5 pts

Outside of above parameters/errors affecting flight safety = 0 pts

 

How should i understand this?

3. LAS.

 

8.3.2. Low Angle Strafe (LAS)

Planned dive angle of 15 degrees or less. Minimum slant range is 2,000 feet. Minimum recovery altitude is 75 feet AGL. Number of rounds per event is 100.

Planned delivery: 45° offset, 2500ft AGL Run-in @335KIAS, 2.3 NM Base, 10° Dive, firing slat range 0.7NM

Safe Escape: Turn Level Turn

Delivery Scoring Criteria: Alt 750+/- 250ft & dive angle 30° at release = 10 pts

Alt 750+/- 500ft & dive angle 25-35° at release = 5 pts

Outside of above parameters/errors affecting flight safety = 0 pts

 

what about this?

4. 2.8

 

2.8. vSquadrons will provide a point of contact and PM paulrkiii on the ED message boards who that POC is.

 

What does it mean?

Addition:

 

5. Can i change waypoints(anyone) elevation?

 

6. Can i switch FPM to manual?

1. Slant range explanation HERE.

2. That is an error, good catch. Should be 6000 AGL.

3. Same as above, an error. Though we'd corrected these, but obviously not. Apologies.

4. Give Paulrkiii a name of someone in your Sqn who will represent your Sqn in any meetings, and be the person we speak to first if we have any information or questions for your Sqn.

5. You, could, for your internal training. But from a technical point of view, it wouldn't be very helpful the current waypoints are set up at the altitudes needed to put you at the right height and distance for each part of the delivery.

6. I'm not sure what you mean here.

1. Slant range explanation HERE.

 

2. That is an error, good catch. Should be 6000 AGL.

 

3. Same as above, an error. Though we'd corrected these, but obviously not. Apologies.

 

4. Give Paulrkiii a name of someone in your Sqn who will represent your Sqn in any meetings, and be the person we speak to first if we have any information or questions for your Sqn.

 

5. You, could, for your internal training. But from a technical point of view, it wouldn't be very helpful the current waypoints are set up at the altitudes needed to put you at the right height and distance for each part of the delivery.

 

6. I'm not sure what you mean here.

Glad I refreshed before posting....I saw the error as soon as I started reading his questions :(

Thanks a lot.

5. I can quickly switch waypoints elev using CDU while on start up or on route. This thing really helps when turning on target. Simple following the "square" and TVV.

For now they tuned too high. So when i turn on target i dont see the STPT square. And i need to search the target. Some one does not have powerfull comuters to set VISIB. range to MAX.

So, can't i?

6. Manual waypoints switching. Is it allowed?

And, btw, how will you control this stuff? I mean you don't know what i did if only you didn't asked my client track.

 

 

 

Thanks a lot.

 

5. I can quickly switch waypoints elev using CDU while on start up or on route. This thing really helps when turning on target. Simple following the "square" and TVV.

For now they tuned too high. So when i turn on target i dont see the STPT square. And i need to search the target. Some one does not have powerfull comuters to set VISIB. range to MAX.

 

So, can't i?

 

6. Manual waypoints switching. Is it allowed?

 

 

And, btw, how will you control this stuff? I mean you don't know what i did if only you didn't asked my client track.

5. Like eddie said you can but the elevation is the correct elevation per the SOP for delivery. If you go in to high, to low, or at the incorrect dive angle you won't score well.

6. Sure you can switch waypoints manually.

I will know because tacview will be running on both the server (mine) and my sim PC, scoring will be done using the tacview file from the server on various items (as stated in the SOP).

I mean in cockpit. AFAIK, tacview does not record any cockpit manipulations.

It's not a cheat or anything else. It's an easy way to control the turns.

We won't see what you do in the cockpit, that's up to you. How you accomplish things is totally up to you, we've just given you a starting point and essentially given you a 100% pre-planned mission.

As far as putting the waypoint right over the target, no not really. If you did that you could jut CCRP on every waypoint to hit the target, and the MAT delivery would be very easy for you as you wouldn't have to use the TDC at set an SPI over the target.

If we moved the target waypoints in the mission so they were just off the target, that might allow you to put them at 0 elevation to help find the target, but wouldn't let you just drop on them.

I wonder if there is anything that can be done to make the targets easier to see from a distance, I'm not sure that there is.

'kay. i got it. thx again.

BTW, gr8 work=):thumbup:

You see how many questions does AfkMan have? And he is an instructor in his squadron... and a really good one...

 

I hope now you understand why I asked for them tracks or vids...

I do and please forgive my flippancy. It was un-neccessary.

a little guidance every now n then doesn't harm i suppose and actually avoids ambiguity for others.

Regards

'T'

Want some constructive criticism?

 

Next time, setup your profile on the ground, so you don't have to screw with the DSMS while you're flying.

 

During the roll-in for a 45 HADB, don't pull the power back to idle or you'll end up too slow. Stand the throttles up at mid-range.

 

You had your track set okay, but you were more than 15° shallow, 500ft high, and 50kt slow at release. The abort window is +/- 5° from planned, and +/- 25kt, so that first pass should have been aborted.

 

The SEM started out great with a 4g pull, but then fell apart. Make sure the TVV stays within 2° of the horizon, and get back up to 4g for at least 60° of turn. You just kind of "floundered" there while you tried to score your own bombs.

 

Never, ever, try to score your own bombs. Fly the airplane.

 

The second pass looked better, I think you were only 10° shallow and 40kt slow. But that SEM was all over the place. 6.5g's and a chopped tone mean you're pulling too hard. You ended the second SEM the same as the first, with the nose high, and insufficient G.

 

It's the details! :book: :smartass::joystick:

TY for the detailed analysis!

Most of the points are known. This vid was never meant to be released to the public. It was only made to explain our pilots how to do the roll in turn.

Setting the DSMS on the ground is kinda hard with an in-air-mission-start! ;)

About the throttles: I NEVER ended slow with throttles IDLE at the roll-in. Vice versa I always ended way too fast with more power than IDLE.

Shame on me I sucked so much meeting the parameters... :music_whistling: But honestly: The DCS IFFCC sucks!!! Using the DTOF setting makes you release your bombs too high, same for setting the release altitude. Using MSA as release altitude works better, but still not perfect.

As I knew there were no threats I didn't care too much about the SEM. As said: It was never meant to be released, especially not at the current BETA stage. Just thought some might find it useful, to understand the rough concept of the Z-diagrams.

But thanks again for taking the time and finding all the mistakes! :thumbup:

paulrkii:

Where/what are you developing the SOP for the deliveries off of? Is it publicly available material?

paulrkii:

 

Where/what are you developing the SOP for the deliveries off of? Is it publicly available material?

If you search on google some of the data comes up but Eddie is the delivery wizard ofthe SOP.

http://www.hawgsmoke.com/assets/literature/Hawgsmoke%20Mils.pdf

http://www.hawgsmoke.com/assets/literature/IFG%20Hawgsmoke%202008.pdf

I wonder if there is anything that can be done to make the targets easier to see from a distance, I'm not sure that there is.

I suggest smoke markers (green or X) in 3 corners wide enough around target so that you don't get any problem from the smoke itself.

--

BTW, for some reason, I find all waypoints to be too close to target with regards to the delivery profiles... offsets seem off too. For example, LALD, when overflying exactly the pop-up, then climbing 25 deg, at 4500ft towards base/PUP waypoint I would end up in a position where the only good release would be at 3000ft 45dive or 3500ft 20dive. Base/PUP is also at 1.3nm instead of the 1.5nm listed in the SOP.

Or am I supposed to offset first, fly a bit, overfly the pop-up (not towards base) and pull 25 climb, then at 4500ft, roll-in to base? Then the waypoins would make more sense...

I'm asking because even though we've done this kind of profile a lot before, it's the first time we got waypoints to fly through ! I actually had more success ignoring the waypoints and flying the 45offset pop-up with guts and timing, but from what I read so far, it seems like not flying the exact profile is going to cost points even though it's not an official scoring criteria in the SOP... I'd like a clarification on that, I'm not saying waypoints are misplaced cause I'm pretty sure you guys did a good job, I'm just saying that I don't get their location in the profile.

Also, are the waypoints located after a given turn or before it?

About the fuel weight. Will it be possible to load less than 100% or is a full tank mandatory?

Thanks a lot !

I apologize if this has been asked and answered. What about altimeter setting? I noticed 29.92 put us close to airport elevation. Are we leaving it 29.92 or are we receiving the proper setting when checking in with the range officer/ATC?

....Is it publicly available material?

Yes, and no at the same time. Nothing here is derived from anything not in the public domain so to speak, but many of the source documents are just notes I've put together over the years, both from some good google skills various books and snippets of info I've got from BlueRidgeDX and others to fill in the gaps.

As I said previously in this thread, if anyone wants the raw notes etc to help develop their own training program for their Sqn, just shoot me a PM and I'll gladly share. Don't expect anything as well formatted as the SOP though, they really are raw notes, and some of the details I don't have written down anywhere as it's just stuff I've got floating around my head.

I suggest smoke markers (green or X) in 3 corners wide enough around target so that you don't get any problem from the smoke itself.

Good idea, we'll have to see how it effects FPS etc for everyone though.

BTW, for some reason, I find all waypoints to be too close to target with regards to the delivery profiles... offsets seem off too.

Hmmm, when we've flown the mission the preset waypoints were all spot on so not really sure there.

For example, LALD, when overflying exactly the pop-up, then climbing 25 deg, at 4500ft towards base/PUP waypoint I would end up in a position where the only good release would be at 3000ft 45dive or 3500ft 20dive. Base/PUP is also at 1.3nm instead of the 1.5nm listed in the SOP.

Again, no issues here. Are you starting the climb at the PUP rather than waiting until you've overflown it? As for the turn at base, are you starting the turn/dive BEFORE you actually reach 4500ft so that you hit 4500ft at the apex of the turn?

Or am I supposed to offset first, fly a bit, overfly the pop-up (not towards base) and pull 25 climb, then at 4500ft, roll-in to base? Then the waypoins would make more sense...

Not really sure what you mean here, but you should be flying pretty much along the flightplan lines as shown on the TAD for proper alignment.

I'm asking because even though we've done this kind of profile a lot before, it's the first time we got waypoints to fly through ! I actually had more success ignoring the waypoints and flying the 45offset pop-up with guts and timing, but from what I read so far, it seems like not flying the exact profile is going to cost points even though it's not an official scoring criteria in the SOP... I'd like a clarification on that, I'm not saying waypoints are misplaced cause I'm pretty sure you guys did a good job, I'm just saying that I don't get their location in the profile.

Guts and timing works fine, always done the same myself for the most part, but as I said above, when I've flown the mission the preset waypoint fit more or less exactly with my guts and timing profile.

The scoring only refers to your dive angle and altitude at the point of weapon release, it doesn't matter if your base/pup etc is a bit off, but being off by much will make the rest pretty difficult. Remember, if you do it right you'll only have 5-10 seconds (depending on the delivery type) of tracking time in which to get the pipper on the target before you hit release altitude.

Make sure you use CCIP CR!

Also, are the waypoints located after a given turn or before it?

AT the turn point.

About the fuel weight. Will it be possible to load less than 100% or is a full tank mandatory?

Paul will need to confirm as the general area of the SOP is his baby. But as the judges have no way of knowing what your fuel state is, it's up to you. BUT, I will say that when I've flown it with full tanks I was only landing with around 2500-3000lbs, even allowing for the fact I was also running through things for some other pilots and doing a few dry runs I think full tanks will be needed.

Don't forget you've got a 40 min range slot and transit time, mostly at low level and high throttle settings, and you'll be spending more time in the air as a 4 ship than you will when you run it solo due to having to hold/orbit/fly the range pattern while other flight member carry out their attacks.

About the fuel weight. Will it be possible to load less than 100% or is a full tank mandatory?

 

Thanks a lot !

Looks like Eddie covered most of your questions. As far as I'm concerned yes you should keep 100% fuel load but like Eddie said there is no way I or any the judge would know unless you run out during the competition and either crash or have to divert to the alternate airfield.

I apologize if this has been asked and answered. What about altimeter setting? I noticed 29.92 put us close to airport elevation. Are we leaving it 29.92 or are we receiving the proper setting when checking in with the range officer/ATC?

Good question...let me think on that one :D

I have recieved PMs from some members that they are the point of contact for their vSquadron others I have not. What I did was go through the thread and those that posted the most for their respective vSquadron I put in as POC. If that is not correct please PM me who I need to get in contact with.

Thanks!

Tomorrow I'll have version 7 of the mission and SOP v 1.3 uploaded.

Version 7 of the mission has smoke (different color) directly north of each target area to help those with lower sim settings.

Also, just an FYI, to ensure no issues with lag or warping on the actual even it will have low settings for scenes. We just did a mass test in the 25th and had no issues with lag/warping with lots of smoke.

I would rather give up some eye candy for as close to 100% stability...

Someone removed the documents from the original links...

...so here goes RL 2008 & 2010 Hawgsmoke docs, cropped and optimized to fit one attachment... :smartass:

Hawgsmoke_RL.zip