SAM Mission Strategy

I've read many, many posts regarding the avoidance of SAMS and I think I've seen every YouTube video (much thanks to all). However, I must be missing something. Often during a mission I encounter multiple SAMS en route. If I attack them, I won't have enough weapons left to complete the mission objectives. I have tried to avoid them by circumnavigation, but many times that strategy takes me WAY off course.....so much so that the strategy becomes impractical. I'm sick of getting shot down (I HATE IT and I HATE SAMS). What strategy should I be employing when just trying to stay on course and get to my assigned waypoint? Also, is there a strategy to help avoid being shot down by fighter planes? I've been getting shot down frequently in MP by fighters. Sorry for the stupid questions but I've only got about 50 hrs. in the aircraft and I'm getting very frustrated. I can handle time in the pit practicing refueling, etc. I just feel like I'm taking the absolute wrong approach regarding SAMS. I don't know what to practice in that regard. Any help is appreciated.

well, i'll kept it simple stupid.

IR sam fly 10k+

AAA/IR sam fly 13k+

tor's/sa15 fly 5-10k shoot w/ mav

sa11/long range fly on the deck take pop shots w/ mavs.

while your flying low killing sa11's get a visual on any air targets, you'd be surprised on how many people will fly over you, or come at you head on. aim-9's work.

Shoot them, fly home, rearm and take the main objective? :-)

Well, there are a few options you can take. Ask for fighter support. It's even better if you have a friend in the role. They can either fly with you as an escort and push ahead upon contact or sweep ahead and clear the region.

As for SAM threats, you may need to bite the bullet here and simply avoid them when possible. If you have the ordnance to do so, I suppose destroying some SAM sites to poke a hole in the defense zones could work well. If these servers have different planes, maybe it's time to make friends with an SU-25T player. convince them to run SEAD on those radar sites for you.

As already said, many threads can simply be avoided by overflying them. Keep at last 14000ft AGL to be safe from IR-Launches.

Sa11 can be easily dodged as they fire from max. range. Simply spot where the smoke goes off, point your TGP (boresight) there and turn around. Repeat till the launcher runs out of missiles (each has 4) and kill it if you want to. Be aware that the Sa11 won't shoot at range if you destroy the search radar of the group (AGM-65H/K in force correlate comes in handy), but the launcher is still able to fire on closer range.

So basically avoid IR/AAA by flying high if able to, Radar sams depend on their position and type: Very long range (S300) should be completely avoided if there is no terrain to take cover. Midrange sam (Sa11) can be engaged with terrain cover or by simply emptying them out. Shorter range sams like Tor can be engaged with Mavericks, if stationary I prefer force correlate (greater range). Tunguskas can be engaged with smart munitions if you are high enough (16000ft atlast?)

Thanks for the suggestions.

Thing about tors is I'm pretty sure they can still shoot down your mavericks- so be mindful of that.

Also- sa10s can launch outside of the range of your missile launch warning system... Frankly I'm not sure how to contend with them unless you fly with a su25t equipped for SEAD.

Sa10's are radar guided, so the MWS should not play a role in detection, unless there is a delay until they switch to STT mode.

I'm not sure if tors still engage Mavericks, last time I tried to kill one it did not fire, but perhaps that was the bug. At last I'm sure tunguskas do not engage incoming missiles anymore.

MWS will detect all missile launches (if the parameters are right), so yes, it will let you know of a SA-10 launch if it's not from 50 miles away.

TORs engage mavericks, yes, so you need to fire two in quick succession to kill it, or with a buddy from two different spots.

Man, I have been running campaign missions, calling into JTAC and getting tasked to kill tanks...waiting through them for him to run out of targets and task me on SAM so I can get a free pointer. A long wait for a train that never comes.

I never thought about just flying over them.

MWS will detect all missile launches (if the parameters are right), so yes, it will let you know of a SA-10 launch if it's not from 50 miles away.

You of all people know that ish will launch at max range every time (unless the mission designer late activates it like a wiseguy) so the launch will almost always go undetected lol.

Easiest way to deal with Sam's is to buy a ka50 pilot a couple rounds in the local watering hole, then let them clear a path through the mountains for you ;)

Easiest way to deal with Sam's is to buy a ka50 pilot a couple rounds in the local watering hole, then let them clear a path through the mountains for you ;)

People seem to underestimate how good the Ka-50 really is on a lot of servers

If you want easy mode you hook up with 2 Su25T SEAD and 2 F-15 doing a sweep ahead of you.

I think situational awareness is a major factor here. Basically, when you see something nasty on your RWR, don't fly right at it.

Also, as already said you should be flying a MINIMUM of 10,000ft AGL if there is ANY chance of a manpad in the area. That won't stop them launching at you but should give you enough time to kick out some flares and GTFO there if they do.

Mavericks are you friend. If you know there's something nasty out there and you know where it is, reach out and touch it. If it's REALLY nasty, avoid it (either by keeping your distance or terrain masking).

Learn how to effectively use countermeasures and the ECM pod in case you do get into trouble. If something launches at you, don't just drop one or two flares. My default 'IR SAM' program pumps out TWENTY in just over two seconds.

One thing I would like to add here - in some of the missions you will be flying you can predict what the main threat would be. Remember to adjust the number of chaffs and flares accordingly. For instance in missions where your main enemy would be insurgents without access to high level SAM systems (i.e. they would most likely only have MANPADS), get more flares (reducing number of chaffs). That might be a lifesaver.

Yeah, as has been said:

-AGM-65K/H in force correlate can be launched accurately in good weather from at least 15nm away from 20k feet (perhaps even 20nm, haven't extensively tested what is the max range). Waiting for a lock usually brings you about 4-8nm away which is imo a big risk.

-Other way to take on medium/long range SAMs is to acquire the target with TGP from far away, and if you're sure there are no threats between ingress point and target, come in low, using terrain if possible, and when in range, pop up to shoot the mav and dive back to the weeds.

-In CAS missions in mountainous terrain it's often impractical to fly over 10k AGL and manpads are a big risk. In case you get launched on, as Howie87 said, don't save the flares: pop as many as you can in quick succession while diving and maneuvering hard, and at the very least least the missile should explode far away enough so that you can limp the plane back home.

-The best way to deal with fighters is to go as low as you safely can (even < 30 ft), possibly putting them to 3-9 clock position so that their radars have harder time picking you up and get the f out :joystick: A-10 is no match for them and as soon as they're in range, you're as good as dead. However as the RWR doesn't represent ranges accurately and it can pick up radar emissions from twice the range the fighter pilot can actually scan, it's pretty hard to tell whether he's 40nm away or on the other side of the map (perhaps someone with more experience on radars can give some insight on this).

-For me all SAMs that might pose a threat on completing the mission are always the priority targets: if it requires a rearm, then so be it. The ground troops will probably be happy to get the help a bit later than never.

One think I would like to add here - in some of the missions you will be flying you can predict what the main threat would be. Remember to adjust the number of chaffs and flares accordingly. For instance in missions where your main enemy would be insurgents without access to high level SAM systems (i.e. they would most likely only have MANPADS), get more flares (reducing number of chaffs). That might be a lifesaver.

This.

Your CMS setup can make or break your survival with SAMs. It's important to know what type of SAMS you will be encountering and set up your programs accordingly. I usually just set up 2, though a wide variety of threats will make me set up 4 or maybe even 5.

But anyway, if you know that all will be launching on you are Strela's and MANPADs, set your A programme to a flare one (I usually set it to 1 flare every half second, in a cycle of 10. Set your B programme to the same but chaff, just incase you wander into the LZ's of nasty stuff like Tors, Buks and maybe even SA-10. One note on this though - the A10 is NOT a SEAD weapon. Unless a sophisticated mid-long range SAM is directly blocking you from your objective, then avoid it altogether. Many people who set up online missions put the nasty stuff where they do as a deterrent - indicating you're just not supposed to fly near there.

The most you'll be able to hit with mavs in terms of radar guided SAMs are SA-19s, SA-8s, SA-3s (mainly because they're old and are easily defeated with CMS and manoeuvring) and SOMETIMES SA-15s, though I usually have to fire off 2 AGM-65Ds in quick succession because he usually shoots the first one down.

But yeah in summary, set up your CMS programmes A-D in order of what you'll most likely need depending on the type of threat, and try to avoid the big radar stuff unless it's defending the target - it's usually to keep you away.

If something launches at you, don't just drop one or two flares. My default 'IR SAM' program pumps out TWENTY in just over two seconds.

This. Don't be like I tend to be, and say "you can pry my countermeasures out of my cold dead hands" reasoning that "if I use them now, I might not have any if a SAM is launched at me later". Weird, quite unhealthy instinct :P

The vertical launch SAMs used to go stupid as soon as they launched against a low-flying plane. It was amusing while it lasted to score gun kills against SA-10 and SA-15 sites.

Just to reiterate my point about being generous with flares, with a standard loadout of 120 you can still defeat six missiles if you're putting out 20 at a time.

Your odds of defeating all six are still pretty slim anyway, so don't be a cheap ass. Otherwise you'll end up with 118 flares and no wings.

Just to reiterate my point about being generous with flares, with a standard loadout of 120 you can still defeat six missiles if you're putting out 20 at a time.

 

Your odds of defeating all six are still pretty slim anyway, so don't be a cheap ass. Otherwise you'll end up with 118 flares and no wings.

Actually, now you've got me thinking that this would be a good subject to do some empirical testing of, to see what makes an effective chaffing / flaring program in terms of volume and time. Then see if it applies equally to most regular flight conditions and evasive maneuvers, and to situations where a player is manning the launcher.

In DCS it seems more important to get flares/chaff out sooner rather than at the last minute.

The logic being that if a missile is far away when it locks onto chaff or a flare, it won't come anywhere near you.

Also, from experience and through looking at tacview it seems to me that the closer a missile is, the less chance there is of it being spoofed by CMS.

That's why I pump out a large amount as fast as I can. I'm talking 0.2 second intervals as soon as I get the heads up from the MWS.

Understanding the trajectory of the missile is hugely important as well. If you're flying towards a missile and pumping out CMS, it probably won't help. You need to beam that sucker and get your eyes on it. Do everything you can to make it fly further, turn harder and bleed energy.

If you're beaming it at 90 degrees and it's still heading straight for your canopy despite everything, consider a high G barrel roll as a last ditch avoidance manoeuvre.

I was just messing around at finding bugs and avoiding SAM's and thought I'd post this track here for newbs.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=124312

Ignore the bit with me playing with dials for the first 30 seconds. The missile dodging comes soon after.

I'm particularly proud of the touch and go within feet of a manpad!

I got same problem with SAM. They are nasty! It is pretty clear. Chaff and flare are fundamental but if necessary is good to use a neap of earth attack or a pop-up in relation with your target. In any case most of wild weasel is a mission that must be deal from other assets like EA-6B or F-16 or F-15E. We come after. Right ?