Why am i losing my TGP SPI?

Hi

I am making a SPI using TGP. The Wedding Cake appears on the TAD. When I do CHAL it moves the TGP to my current Steerpoint(Which is what I want it do as I am inspecting what's at the Steerpoint.), but the existing SPI I had designated disappears and the Wedding Cake is now appearing at my current Steerpoint. So it's like CHAL is not only moving the TGP to the Steerpoint, but also making the Steerpoint SPI at the same time and replacing the SPI I designated.

Why??

Thanks

Your TGP is SPI source, so if your TGP is pointing at the steerpoint, so will your SPI.

You can tell what is your SPI source by looking in the HUD (bottom left).

I don't know if it's clear. If you have no SPI source the SPI will default to steerpoint.

EDIT: With that logic, for example, you can make you TDC SPI, then slave all sensors to SPI. Then if you move you TDC around your TGP will follow as well.

Best is to test, experiment the various combinations.

EDIT2: If you find a point of interest you wish to keep, best is to create a mark point on it (TMS right short), you can find it again later even if you mess with your TGP.

China Hat Aft Long by definition will "Slave TGP to steerpoint". Having that said, if you were designating the SPI with the TGP, the steerpoint will become your SPI.

China Hat Aft Long by definition will "Slave TGP to steerpoint". Having that said, if you were designating the SPI with the TGP, the steerpoint will become your SPI.

Not exactly, the steerpoint doesn't become SPI, the TGP points to steerpoint and TGP is also SPI source.

I know it's a small difference but it matters IMO.

At that point if you move the TGP the SPI will follow, which wouldn't be the case if SPI = steerpoint.

Always check the SPI source in the HUD when not sure ;)

Ah ok. I thought the SPI would still be what I designated as SPI before I started to cycle through Steerpoints. But it's like the TGP is SOI and whatever it's looking at becomes SPI.

Thanks again.

You can always TMS right to create mark points A-Y with TGP SOI with whatever it's looking at. Also, if your TGP is making your SPI, you can also use the TAD cursor and highlight your wedding cake, and TMS right.

Z markpoint is where you last made an attack.

Not exactly, the steerpoint doesn't become SPI, the TGP points to steerpoint and TGP is also SPI source.

I know it's a small difference but it matters IMO.

 

At that point if you move the TGP the SPI will follow, which wouldn't be the case if SPI = steerpoint.

Always check the SPI source in the HUD when not sure ;)

You are correct :thumbup:

Ah ok. I thought the SPI would still be what I designated as SPI before I started to cycle through Steerpoints. But it's like the TGP is SOI and whatever it's looking at becomes SPI.

 

Thanks again.

Glad it helped :thumbup:

When I read that back it might seem like gibberish (SPI, SOI, TAD, TGP, too many acronyms lol).

Just one precision, SOI is not necessarily the SPI source.

SOI just indicates the sensor you're currently interacting with through the HOTAS.

You can have TGP as SPI source and TAD as SOI at the same time for example.

To know your SOI, look for the green frame on MFDs or * in HUD (which indicates HUD SOI).

To know you SPI source, look in the bottom left of the HUD.

Create a markpoint if you get concerned about losing a SPI. Especially when you start out, its easy to start hitting the wrong button and losing the target you have designated as SPI. Mark Points have saved me many times. Also, as a point of information.....the Z mark point is created at the location of the last target you destroyed. That can be handy if you want to slew back to your last target.

Create a markpoint if you get concerned about losing a SPI. Especially when you start out, its easy to start hitting the wrong button and losing the target you have designated as SPI. Mark Points have saved me many times. Also, as a point of information.....the Z mark point is created at the location of the last target you destroyed. That can be handy if you want to slew back to your last target.

This is the third time someone suggest this... I think there's not much to add then.

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2396635&postcount=2

http://forums.eagle.ru/showpost.php?p=2396664&postcount=6

Couldn't he just set the SPI with the TGP, set the HUD as SOI and then china hat aft long? Or would that also remove the SPI. I get that it's probably better to use a mark point, but I'm wondering if this is possible.

EDIT: Just tested this, forgot that CHAL slave all sensors to SPI, not the TGP to the current SOI.

Sorry if OT but how to create multiple marks? Repeating TMS Right short deletes the last mark point and create another one :(

Sorry if OT but how to create multiple marks? Repeating TMS Right short deletes the last mark point and create another one :(

They aren't deleted. Its just showing last one created. Below CDU is a dial that can be set to show all markpoints.

They aren't deleted. Its just showing last one created. Below CDU is a dial that can be set to show all markpoints.

Bless you ;)

TMS forward short gives you point tracking, followed by TMS forward long gives you a locked SPI. It has to be used when employing Mavericks.

Maybe that will be what you need to do?

Hi

 

I am making a SPI using TGP. The Wedding Cake appears on the TAD. When I do CHAL it moves the TGP to my current Steerpoint(Which is what I want it do as I am inspecting what's at the Steerpoint.), but the existing SPI I had designated disappears and the Wedding Cake is now appearing at my current Steerpoint. So it's like CHAL is not only moving the TGP to the Steerpoint, but also making the Steerpoint SPI at the same time and replacing the SPI I designated.

 

Why??

 

Thanks

The SPI is not a designated point, it is a constantly generated point. You do not make a SPI or designate a SPI, you simply select which sensor is generating your SPI at any given moment, if and when that selected SPI generator changes to another position the SPI will move along with it.

As has been suggested, if the TGP is your selected SPI generator slewing the TGP to steerpoint with china aft long will naturally move your SPI to the steerpoint location as well, as that is where your SPI generator is now "looking". To avoid this you need to select an alternative SPI generator, possible options are a markpoint or using the slew all (china forward long) to put the HUD TDC over in the same location as the TGP and the selecting HUD as the SPI generator, amongst others.

TMS forward short gives you point tracking, followed by TMS forward long gives you a locked SPI. It has to be used when employing Mavericks.

At no point does the TGP need to be used, or even loaded to effectively employ Mavericks, while the TGP can be used to queue the Maverick seeker on to a target location it is certainly not required, and in some cases doing so is counterproductive and tactically unsound. Using point track at all times is also something of a bad habit, the only time point track is required is when you want the TGP to track a moving object. In addition there is no such thing as "a locked SPI".

The TGP shouldn't be used as a crutch for poor familiarity with the Maverick, it's how bad habits are created and reinforced. Learning to use the Maverick without the TGP first makes you far more effective with the weapon system, and only serves to further increase lethality when you do carry/use the TGP.

The SPI is not a designated point, it is a constantly generated point. You do not make a SPI or designate a SPI, you simply select which sensor is generating your SPI at any given moment, if and when that selected SPI generator changes to another position the SPI will move along with it.

 

As has been suggested, if the TGP is your selected SPI generator slewing the TGP to steerpoint with china aft long will naturally move your SPI to the steerpoint location as well, as that is where your SPI generator is now "looking". To avoid this you need to select an alternative SPI generator, possible options are a markpoint or using the slew all (china forward long) to put the HUD TDC over in the same location as the TGP and the selecting HUD as the SPI generator, amongst others.

 

 

 

At no point does the TGP need to be used, or even loaded to effectively employ Mavericks, while the TGP can be used to queue the Maverick seeker on to a target location it is certainly not required, and in some cases doing so is counterproductive and tactically unsound. Using point track at all times is also something of a bad habit, the only time point track is required is when you want the TGP to track a moving object. In addition there is no such thing as "a locked SPI".

 

The TGP shouldn't be used as a crutch for poor familiarity with the Maverick, it's how bad habits are created and reinforced. Learning to use the Maverick without the TGP first makes you far more effective with the weapon system, and only serves to further increase lethality when you do carry/use the TGP.

Wise words :thumbup:

Learning to use the Maverick without the TGP first makes you far more effective with the weapon system, and only serves to further increase lethality when you do carry/use the TGP.

Hi,

I'm currently learning how to fly the A-10C. Could you elaborate this part of your reply please ? How the use of the TGP will reduce effectiveness in combat operations and how the sole use of the Maverick would increase lethality ?

I'm afraid I'm missing something and I'd rather grasp the idea behind your reasoning. Thanks.

Hi,

 

I'm currently learning how to fly the A-10C. Could you elaborate this part of your reply please ? How the use of the TGP will reduce effectiveness in combat operations and how the sole use of the Maverick would increase lethality ?

 

I'm afraid I'm missing something and I'd rather grasp the idea behind your reasoning. Thanks.

Searching with the TGP is like looking through a soda straw and is time consuming. You have to find the general target area, slew the TGP around target area to find target, set TGP as SPI designator, slew all sensors to SPI, shift to MAV page, lock and fire.

If you have already located the app. target location you can fly the A/C unto target using the wagon wheel in the HUD which will speed up the process. Here is an example of 4xRIFLE on a target of opportunity. The targets were spotted on reciprocate heading, the A/C made a left hook and lined up for the kille;

1h25min

This is the view from the A-10 perspective;

Cheers

Hans

Hi,

 

I'm currently learning how to fly the A-10C. Could you elaborate this part of your reply please ? How the use of the TGP will reduce effectiveness in combat operations and how the sole use of the Maverick would increase lethality ?

 

I'm afraid I'm missing something and I'd rather grasp the idea behind your reasoning. Thanks.

As Hansolo has quite rightly pointed out, in situations where you know the location of your target (as in the group/area/killbox not each individual unit), the most effective technique is to engage the maximum number of targets possible in a single pass. You cannot do that if the only way you are able to employ Maverick is with the help of the TGP.

Using the TGP to cue the Maverick on to a single specific position/vehicle is an incredibly valuable capabilities when flying CAS in low intensity conflicts close to civilians and/or friendlies where you'll only be delivering a single weapon anyway. However for Air Interdiction or CAS in a high intensity conflict minimising threat exposure and maximising weapon effects in a short time window are critical.

For example, if you're tasked against an armoured battalion with your 4 or 6 mavericks on LAU-88s, it's far more effective to make use of the quick draw function to get all the weapons off in a single pass and then get the hell out of there. Forget looking for individual vehicles, you simply fire on the formation, splitting the formation between wingmen (eg. lead engages the northern half of the formation, and wing the southern).

It's not poor technique to use the TGP, when it's appropriate at all, however once you learn to use the weapon system effectively standalone it gives you more options when it comes to weaponeering and also a better understanding of the limitations/capabilities of the weapon and the aircraft weapon system as a whole.

.... and congratulations, a Strela-10 just shot at you from danger close and you have no room to evade, because you just went in (in a typical DCS scenario)

The truth is, it really depends on the situation.

In most of the DCS engagements you will have, you can calmly approach the AO and enter a circular pattern, scout the whole area with the TGP, mark down your target groups and engage them by priority (SAMs -> AAA/Armor).

You can launch all your mavs on single run if you think over your approach and use markpoints.

Normally, IRL, you might have AFACs, JTACs, Scouts who can already tell you what's on the deck, so you can start your job straight away

Maybe in the near DCS future when we get a scout helicopter like the Kiowa (can't wait for that), we can have real scouting(by a player) and cooperation done not only between the Hawg and Kiowa, but all ground attack capable aircraft.

But, in the case of Hansolo's video, from what I am understanding they are engaging the last remaining groups and as you can see they have quite some control over the area by this point, so he can freely just go in as he did and fire his Mavs from the HUD or from the MAV page.

I am guessing here, that the point Eddie is trying to get across is, if you start learning with less you can build up your tactics and knowledge of operating your aircraft and systems, thus when reach to the top end, you will know which tactics and weapon employment methods would be most effective for your current situation

Sorry for OT

.... and congratulations, a Strela-10 just shot at you from danger close and you have no room to evade, because you just went in (in a typical DCS scenario)

In a "typical" DCS scenario perhaps, in a well constructed mission following realistic orders of battle, no. All weapon systems have a reaction time, the idea of a pop-up attack is to expose yourself for less than that reaction time and re-mask before you can be engaged. This is why a high degree of proficiency with the weapon system is necessary.

Besides, depending on the situation, being shot at is part of life. It's going to happen, it doesn't mean you don't engage your target. Your wingman is there to call out any SAM/AAA fire to enable you to defend, and it's perfectly possible to defeat the GOPHER from within 2 nautical miles. Part of your mission planning is choreographing your ingress and attack to minimise threat exposure, if you're down low it's because MERAD/LORAD or the hostile air is pushing you down there.

The truth is, it really depends on the situation.

Indeed, which is why understanding the full capabilities of your platform are important, so you can choose the most appropriate tactics to deal with the situation.

In most of the DCS engagements you will have, you can calmly approach the AO and enter a circular pattern, scout the whole area with the TGP, mark down your target groups and engage them by priority (SAMs -> AAA/Armor).

Your target priorities as an attack aircraft are Armour/Artillery first and foremost, not air defences. The air defences are there to stop you hitting your target, if you spend all your ToT hunting them rather than doing your job, they have accomplished their objective of preventing you hitting the areas/formations they are defending.

Not to mention that while you're flying in circles looking through your TGP, the enemy IADS is tracking you and the SAMs are just waiting for you to attack so they can blow you out of the sky, that is if they don't vector fighters to you first. And you won't have any TARCAP/Escort or SEAD cover as their playtime has long gone while you've been flying in circles. Not to mention all the packages following you have been unable to enter the airspace that you've been occupying all this time.

There is a time and a place for different tactics and techniques, knowing the right one to use at the right time matters. There's no such thing as one method for all situations.

In low intensity conflicts flying on altitude hold while working the TGP is necessary to find that one insurgent in a tree line. In a conventional war you're going up against formations of tens or even hundreds of tanks, and a truly terrifying amount of very effective air defences. Spending all your playtime trying to plink a GRISON or GAUNTLET when there are another 3 in the battery and perhaps two or more batteries within a 10 miles of your objective isn't going to stop the armour rolling over friendly ground forces, or the artillery turning them to pink mist from afar.

In short, time is often critical, especially when it comes to CAS, you're usually dealing in minutes or even seconds, not hours.

You can launch all your mavs on single run if you think over your approach and use markpoints

You can do it without using the markpoint crutch much more effectively. Hint, the method you're encouraging isn't described in any real world TTP manual. What I and others are, is.

I am not arguing with you about real life tactics (I don't believe I have even the slightest knowledge you have, when it comes to this topic, to even start an argument with you), there is reason I said "in most of the DCS engagements you will have"

After all, the typical Hawg driver is not part of a big squadron, based on realism and plays on servers, where your targets are static and in big kill boxes.

This is probably the main reason why a lot of people say the Hawg is boring, as unless a big effort to simulate a real situation is made in the ME, you can't have a realistic CAS engagements and it comes down to more of what I described above.

In your typical DCS flight, you fly as a single ship, with no comms and no support (CAP/SEAD) or with some other randoms (who steal your targets while you wait for your GBU to shack)

Therefore, as we both agreed, it really depends on the situation, which in the common case needs you to do everything by yourself (CAP/S(D)EAD/CAS).

As I do admire your knowledge on the subject, which will be completely correct in a realistic, organised battlefield and the way to go.

Unless you are in a squadron or you can even see this need in moderation on dynamic mission servers (MP wise), you can go quite a bit more calmly about your job.

And when it comes to the markpoints... If you have a group of 5 tanks and 4 mavericks, well obviously as long as you have eyes on them, you won't need the markpoints, but when you want to kill all 4 Strelas in the AO, in one go, separated by couple of klicks each, mixed with other units, you can do so in around 8 seconds with couple of MP. I'd say that it is a viable tactics, even if not described in any handbook.

I am not really encouraging anything, just giving examples, which I believe are more viable, when it comes to the typical DCS engagement. I am adaptive, my tactics change depending on the mission ;). I will assume that your typical A-10 mission, really differs from the typical user's multiplayer experience.