How to Land the Dora

I thought it was a great innovation!

 

It is the same on the P-51, I wonder who came up with the idea first?

 

Good question and interesting bit of trivia!

 

Well, with "someone born in Germany" you´re not far away from the correct answer :D

 

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Edgar_Schmued

 

He has a very interesting vita... P-51, F-86, F-100, F-5

 

Fox

Did the Shrike use the same system I can't recall and my books are at home?

I spent a long time trying to take off, and finally got some help and was able to

finally do most of my T/O's without flipping to the left and crashing.

 

Now landing is another issue.... I dont normally die upon landing, but its very

rare for me to be able to do so without damaging the Dora. I have practiced

over and over and always bounce many times. I have practiced flying very

low over the lakes and ground, and just cant seem to land very well.

 

I use flaps down and cut my power off just before landing and cant seem to

ever have my stick back into my lap for the tail to lock. If I try to bring it back

the plane shoots up and I bounce or tumble and die.

I spent a long time trying to take off, and finally got some help and was able to

finally do most of my T/O's without flipping to the left and crashing.

 

Now landing is another issue.... I dont normally die upon landing, but its very

rare for me to be able to do so without damaging the Dora. I have practiced

over and over and always bounce many times. I have practiced flying very

low over the lakes and ground, and just cant seem to land very well.

 

I use flaps down and cut my power off just before landing and cant seem to

ever have my stick back into my lap for the tail to lock. If I try to bring it back

the plane shoots up and I bounce or tumble and die.

 

Hi ctguy,

 

watch here:

 

 

regards

 

Little_D

Thank You Little D for this info about the video !!! I really look forward to using the settings recommended in the video but its so cold in my upstairs mancave where My computer is

that I will have to wait until tomorrow...........29 degrees F is just not fun to fly in !!!!

 

Im going back down to the 68F main part of the house to drink a cold beer !!!

 

 

 

**********************************************UPDATE************************************************

 

well I tried and tried and just still could not do it. I will keep practicing at Ifoxromeo multiplayer site where He set up a

landing runway for the dora.

Edited January 4, 2016 by ctguy1955
update

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_ZG4xOCVob0&spfreload=10[/ame]

 

A slightly improved version of my attempts & explanation

 

Still not in the same class as LittleD but do hope it helps somebody

Just wanted to hop in and say thanks a lot for the Dora videos Little_D!

Despite I'm not new to the Dora itself, I still keep watching them now and then. They have that genuine vintage feel and are even relaxing in their own way! :music_whistling:

 

Classy act overall, which I sincerely hope you will finish as a series when the time allows it! Cheers!

These vids all help and after many hours of practice, I can land without burning the majority of times.... but I feel that there is something wrong. Yes, it is difficult, and I appreciate that the real thing probably is too, and that people who have mastered it can take great pride in the fact, this is OK.

 

I can handle having to learn, BUT the main gear linkage just seems too prone to buckling. I accept that slamming it down hard is going to wreck the gear (at best), but the simple act of having one wheel lift off the runway, and settling back down under either it's own weight on the landing run or with the aid of a little side stick, should not be enough to break the actuation (radius) struts.

 

When you consider that Erich Brunotte says that the A series landed like a Piano dropped from a building, and the Dora has the same gear. Bottom line. I think the gear damage model might be off.

 

PS OT, but. I found this Handbook on the A-8 which makes an iteresting read: [ame]http://www.lexpev.nl/downloads/fw190a8.pdf[/ame]

I can handle having to learn, BUT the main gear linkage just seems too prone to buckling. I accept that slamming it down hard is going to wreck the gear (at best), but the simple act of having one wheel lift off the runway, and settling back down under either it's own weight on the landing run or with the aid of a little side stick, should not be enough to break the actuation (radius) struts.

 

So I've been learning the Dora recently and I find it's actually quite pleasant on landing, the wide gear give plenty of tolerance and it's a bit less squirrelly on the roll out than the Mustang. But then I've had a lot of practice with landing the P-51D. I've not managed to break the landing gear on the Dora yet and I've dropped it pretty hard (at least what I think is pretty hard).

 

I do think landing in a simulator is probably harder than in real life, no depth perception, no "seat of the pants" feel. Tail draggers are a bit notorious for being hard to land, and the DCS ones are true to form.

 

I can't be certain but I'd guess that if you're breaking the gear then you're probably landing with too much side slip. Landing gear can tolerate a lot of vertical and forward/back force but not a huge amount of sideways force. But if you post a video of a troubled landing I'm happy to give more feedback.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Tomsk

I can handle having to learn, BUT the main gear linkage just seems too prone to buckling. I accept that slamming it down hard is going to wreck the gear (at best), but the simple act of having one wheel lift off the runway, and settling back down under either it's own weight on the landing run or with the aid of a little side stick, should not be enough to break the actuation (radius) struts.

I keep telling my squad mates one of the things I learnt the firsts times I landed myself while getting my licence is you don't realize at all how wildly we usually land in a simulator. After that every time you land in a simulator you feel the pain in your ribs when you see somebody hard landing. DCS just isn't so forgiving any more. Above all, remember always make a nice round out and flare before touching down and you'll enhance your landings by 1000%.

 

S!

Above all, remember always make a nice round out and flare before touching down and you'll enhance your landings by 1000%.

 

Yeah it's all about the flare, especially in a taildragger. A lot of people don't really understand what the flare is for in a taildragger. So with a tricycle geared aircraft you can plop the thing onto the ground and it'll probably stay there, not so with a taildragger!

 

The key to a three point landing in a taildragger is you need the plane to be out of speed and on the verge of a stall just as the main wheels touch the ground. If your mains touch the ground and the plane is not out of speed then when the wheels touch the tail will continue down with momentum and that will point the nose back up again and it will "bounce". If you get a bounce you need to "go around", don't try and saving a landing after a bounce.

 

The best way to achieve a nice three point landing is that during the flare you cut power and fly the plane along the runway just above the ground letting it bleed off speed. As it gets slower and slower you should find you need to point the nose higher and higher to keep the wheels off the ground. Eventually that won't be possible anymore as the wing will begin to stall, ideally this will happen with the plane just skirting over the ground so that it stalls gently onto the ground.

 

Of course the reality is that it's not easy to hold a plane inches from the ground with a constantly changing attitude, especially with no depth perception ... and you really don't want to stall a lot too high. So what most people do in practice is bleed off most of the speed and then let it gently drop onto the ground a bit above stall speed. You sometimes get a tiny hop as you land but it's better than stalling too high. You learn the "landing attitude" by knowing where the horizon should be compared to your front dash, you flare out until the nose gets that high and then you don't pull harder. I usually use an attitude similar to where the plane naturally sits on the ground, but with the nose a bit less high.

 

When first learning it I would also suggest not cutting power until you are hovering comfortably above the runway, and cut it very gently. It will cause you to use up more runway but that's usually not so important. As you get more proficient you can cut power earlier and more aggressively for shorter landings.

Edited June 27, 2016 by Tomsk

........ or to put it another way as I learned many years ago getting my gliding licence, set it up then hold just off the ground and try not to land..... until it just does.

Thanks guys.

 

Well... Practice Makes Perfect they say ;)

 

I'm now managing to make it down in one piece nearly every time, with about 60% of my landings being good, straight in and lined up, 30% involving a little bit of undercarriage leg bending, and the rest usually dropping a wing and writing off an aileron... with maybe 10% being a complete cock-up... but all good landings in the sense that my little man can walk away from them. I can fix it though, being an ex aircraft fitter ;)

 

99% of my prangs were because I flared too soon or too late and either dropped a wing in the former, or bounced with the latter.

 

I still think the gear is too weak, but I am doing my practices in the Instant Action, full fuel and ammo (whos idea was that?) mission.

 

Part of my improvement was taking on-board the flare advice. I had been coming in far to shallow, and not being able to see the runway for most of the landing was a disaster. Now I come in a bit steeper and a little hot, with the runway picture taking up half my windscreen, trimmed nose down, which forces me to hold the stick back almost to the point where I want it for locking the tailwheel, and keeping more of an eye out rather than on the instruments, mainly using the base of the gun indicator lights as my reference for the touchdown point, and the top of it for the horizon during the flare. I tried "raising the seat" bit I found the view over the nose distracting.

 

Throttle set to around .7 ATA and speed around 230 at the threshold.

 

The Dusk conditions, my poor eyesight, and the sloping line of hills on the horizon are no help in that mission though, so the occasional glance at the Turn and slip/Artificial Horizon is necessary.

 

The biggest issue is judging height at which to flare, or more to the point, what height I'm floating down the runway at.

 

I also seem to be getting slightly better results with no stick curves, (on a TM Warthog), but a little on the rudder pedals (CH), otherwise I can't reach full travel comfortably (I'm old and creaky).

 

Jets are easier, that's for sure. Even the Huey seems easier, and that's a pig to land neatly.

Part of my improvement was taking on-board the flare advice. I had been coming in far to shallow, and not being able to see the runway for most of the landing was a disaster. Now I come in a bit steeper and a little hot

 

Yes don't come in too shallow, you want to be much steeper than you would land a jet for example. In general I find that a landing that is much too hot can often be saved, but if you aren't yet flared and the runway is disappearing under your nose then it's a go around, you can't save those easily.

 

The biggest issue is judging height at which to flare, or more to the point, what height I'm floating down the runway at.

 

You get better at it with practice, there are also ways to land it when you are terrible at estimating the height. Here's a little example, sorry about the audio-visual quality, first video I've ever recorded.

 

 

Such landings aren't usually the smoothest, or the shortest, but they get the job done without damaging the plane, my vertical speed here was about 1.5 m/s on touchdown which the FW-190 can cope with just fine. The key is leaving the power on, and just holding the nose at a particular attitude. Power on the Dora is usually set using RPM rather than ATA (unlike the 109), and here I used 1500 RPM. If you go a bit higher (say 1700 RPM) you get an even gentler (but longer) landing.

 

Jets are easier, that's for sure. Even the Huey seems easier, and that's a pig to land neatly.

 

It's one of the most challenging (and rewarding) things to do in DCS. Helicopters are also hard but once you've got hovering down landing them is actually pretty easy, at least landings that aren't really hot :-) But landing the WWII birds is really tough, you need to avoid "bouncing" which requires special techniques, the visibility is awful, you have nothing like an FPM marker or electronic aids to help, and you need to be very careful on the roll out because the tail will want to swing round on you.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Tomsk

Hah. Tomsk. Your Vid basically shows one of my "good" landings, but just a bit less steep on the approach. ;)

 

One thing I have noticed is that during a landing with a light aircraft, it seems to be a fair bit easier to float down, though more prone to bouncing.

 

I can vouch for the reward part. Once taking off "clicked" for me, it was a huge achievement... same as managing to hover the Huey.

 

I find it amazing that the wartime pilots who had to do this for real, although experienced on the whole, still had to do it right from the very first time. If the Luftwaffe was anything at all like the RAF, then instruction probably consisted of someone standing on the wing shouting some verbal tips followed by "Viel Glück".

Oh yeah you can go way steeper but it does make it a bit harder :-)

 

Just add more power if your plane is heavier. People tell you to chop the throttle right off just before the flare, and that does give a shorter landing, but it's not the easiest way to do it. Landing with some throttle still on is IMHO a lot safer if you don't care how much runway you use up.

 

I've read that new recruits in the RAF had 20 hours training in a Tiger Moth with an instructor, then they basically get put in a Spitfire and told "right, off you go, there's a good chap". That could well be an exaggeration, but I doubt they could really have been prepared for what they were about to face. I have read it's quite a bit harder in a simulator: no depth perception (bring on VR!) and no seat of the pants feel, but even so ... you can't just press the "reset" button if you screw it up in real life!

 

Really looking forward to getting to play with the Spitfire, especially with my Rift coming in August! Even though in many ways I think the P-51 and the FW-190 suit my preferred style a lot more. The Spitfire was known for being a lovely aircraft with very forgiving handling, I'm sure the DCS version won't disappoint.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Tomsk

One thing I have noticed is that during a landing with a light aircraft, it seems to be a fair bit easier to float down, though more prone to bouncing.

You still don't hold enough airborne. A lighter aircraft is easier to handle, you can easily go take a ride in TF-51 and see the difference with P-51 (even unloaded). But still if you make a proper flaring you should never bounce at all. Remember what somebody said before, at that point "you don't want to touch the ground", keep flying at inches all the time you can until she really falls without speed. Of course after cutting throttle down after crossing threshold. Try that and you'll see not only there are no bouncing at all but your landing roll is considerably shorter even after a really long flaring. My instructor always said, "you stop the aircraft in the air, not with the brakes", and that's the clue.

 

 

I find it amazing that the wartime pilots who had to do this for real, although experienced on the whole, still had to do it right from the very first time. If the Luftwaffe was anything at all like the RAF, then instruction probably consisted of someone standing on the wing shouting some verbal tips followed by "Viel Glück".

Yeah, but still they didn't do it the very first time they flew, they were first instructed in two-seaters so even being dangerous they were supposed to know how to fly when reached a single-seater fighter or whatever aeroplane. It hasn't changed nowadays, you reach to fly a new aerobatic or agricultural single-seater and the only way you achieve your solo flight is getting in and going on your own, but you're supposed to know how to fly first.

 

S!

Remember what somebody said before, at that point "you don't want to touch the ground", keep flying at inches all the time you can until she really falls without speed. Of course after cutting throttle down after crossing threshold.

 

The trouble is that holding a plane inches off the ground without having any depth perception is not at all easy. You can learn to compensate for the lack of depth perception with practice, you can use "other cues" as to how high you are .. but they are imperfect. Stalling out inches above the runway is awesome ... but stalling out meters above the runway is not, and it's not always easy to tell the difference.

 

As I say, I prefer to land with a bit of throttle if I'm not worried about having the shortest possible landing. As in my video you still touch down at the recommended 190 kph but everything happens slower, and I find it's more tolerant of being too high.

My trick is to make a higher approach, rather than dragging it in. Crossing the threshold, chop the throttle, raise the nose to flair, and retract the flaps. You end up on the right speed, and right attitude, as the flaps slowly retract reducing lift, and you do a three pointer.

 

I use this with pretty much all modules I fly.

The trouble is that holding a plane inches off the ground without having any depth perception is not at all easy. You can learn to compensate for the lack of depth perception with practice, you can use "other cues" as to how high you are .. but they are imperfect. Stalling out inches above the runway is awesome ... but stalling out meters above the runway is not, and it's not always easy to tell the difference.

And that's where experience and practice makes a difference :smilewink:. You should try to always look outside, I know how hard it is but that's the way to go. Get used to the runway left to every side of the cockpit. You have the DCS "cheat" every runway is almost the same size and that's a great help. IRL you have to get used to really look outside because every runway is a different wide so when you're starting to learn it's easy to flare too high in a wider runway than your usual (with the great risk of falling from really high) while you can hit the ground :music_whistling: in narrower ones. Your instructor says you all the time that will happen but still... :lol:

 

S!

And that's where experience and practice makes a difference :smilewink:

 

Everyone has their own style but I prefer my way, I think it's more fool proof in a simulator. It's essentially the same, but if you do misjudge the height above runway my approach gives you a perfectly workable landing ... as opposed to a high stall followed by smacking the wing on the ground. IMO the safer approach is better. Also works better in cross winds IMO, landing at absolute stall is just riskier than "near stall". I've read that plenty of flight instructors recommend the same, don't just pull back on the stick until it stalls out ... keep it near stall and land with a little power.

Edited June 28, 2016 by Tomsk

I finally "Got It" I think.. 15 landings in a row without bending the A/C, and one of those after a bottle of wine :)

 

I don't know what happened, it just suddenly went from at very best, 6 in a row, but more usually 2 or 3, to 15.

 

I feel that the main thing I started doing differently to before, was to trim almost full nose-up once I was on the final approach. It seems that the act of having to push the nose forward slightly to counter any possible bounce did the trick. that and learning to judge the correct height to flare better.

 

So to all those who feel like giving up. Just keep doing it. keep mental notes of what you did when it went wrong, and when it went right. Unfortunately, each persons set-up is individual, so no one set of instructions will help you 100%. The real thing didn't (or shouldn't) deviate much from one person/aircraft to another, but in Simulation world, we each have different computers, settings controllers, and even seating positions. All affect the way the thing flies. In my case, I tried putting the stick in front of me, to the side, between my legs and so on. For me, ATM On the desk, directly in front of my right arm is best (Old and stiff shoulder).

 

PS. That Main gear is still too weak IMO, even if I can now land with white indicators showing on both Indicator rods (these white marks really need to be made more visible imo). You guys ARE checking that before you count your landingas as good, aren't you? ;)

PS. That Main gear is still too weak IMO, even if I can now land with white indicators showing on both Indicator rods (these white marks really need to be made more visible imo). You guys ARE checking that before you count your landingas as good, aren't you? ;)

 

Wait... what? Got a screenshot? Are you saying that there's a mark that - if remaining visible - the landing was not a hard one? Else, the mark doesn't show and the landing was considered hard?

PS. That Main gear is still too weak IMO, even if I can now land with white indicators showing on both Indicator rods (these white marks really need to be made more visible imo). You guys ARE checking that before you count your landingas as good, aren't you? ;)

 

Just did a few tries - the white indicator was always visible.

Even after bringing her down pretty hard.

 

You´d really have to smash her down to wreck the gear - at least this was the only time when the indicators retracted (when I wrecked the gear).

Edited July 4, 2016 by golani79

Hi mkiii

This is pretty cool, nice find!

Can you please give me a link to d/l it?

 

 

These vids all help and after many hours of practice, I can land without burning the majority of times.... but I feel that there is something wrong. Yes, it is difficult, and I appreciate that the real thing probably is too, and that people who have mastered it can take great pride in the fact, this is OK.

 

I can handle having to learn, BUT the main gear linkage just seems too prone to buckling. I accept that slamming it down hard is going to wreck the gear (at best), but the simple act of having one wheel lift off the runway, and settling back down under either it's own weight on the landing run or with the aid of a little side stick, should not be enough to break the actuation (radius) struts.

 

When you consider that Erich Brunotte says that the A series landed like a Piano dropped from a building, and the Dora has the same gear. Bottom line. I think the gear damage model might be off.

 

PS OT, but. I found this Handbook on the A-8 which makes an iteresting read: