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Joystick saturation and curvature.


cmiller2426

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Pitch

Deadzone - 0

Curvature - none

Saturation - 60

 

Roll

Deadzone - 0

Curvature - none

Saturation - 100

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

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I understand the point of not having curves. As soon as you apply a curve the sensitivity is lessened in some areas and increased in others by a variable amount, no less.

 

Then there is the fact that our sticks don't represent the same range of motion as the real aircraft. Some say that is why curves are needed.

 

Personally, if it weren't for curves I would still be alongside the runway in a flaming wreck.;)

 

Btw, I don't know about Echo38 but Yo-Yo is not human. :)

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I forgot to add that I have the same "crappy" :D stick as Nate, and 30 is the sweet spot on this Logitech. I do set everything, except saturation, to 30. BS was almost impossible to land 'properly' if I didn't add curve in the throttle axis.

ED have been taking my money since 1995. :P

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guys, please I need expert opinion on this:

 

I set pitch axis curvature to 59

roll axis curvature to 40

rudder axis curvature to 35.

 

now it takes considerable pull force to come from a dive compared to default settings. trimming, however, is more accurate. could ED/ a real mustang pilot/ a real prop pilot give feedback on the most realistic curve setting for the mustang's pitch/roll/yaw axes?

 

I wasn't comfy with the new setting, I reverted to default 0/0/0 curvature.

 

Also, I find that it is hard somehow to maneuver the plane without applying too much force and snapping to either side. Is that what accelerated stall is? I was trying to put the bandit AI on my 6, take him up 90 degrees and snap roll to the vertical using rudder on, so I can come down and have him on my sights with gravity blessing to kick the shit out of him, but AI always seems to be very accurate. I set my fuel to 50% and AI fuel to 75% with similar guns only loadouts, and I still can't tag the bastards.. What is the ratio to correcting AI weight? 1:2 or??

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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A real mustang pilot is not going to be able to give you feedback on a "realistic" curve setting. Realistically, you would have no curve, but required control pressures would change with dynamic air pressure, resulting in a fluid change of stick-force per g. This is what curve is kind of attempting to simulate. For that reason, it depends on your particular joystick/equipment.

 

I hope this helps. I use 2 deadzone per stick axis. 15 curvature in roll, 25 curvature in pitch not to exceed 30. In the rudder axis, I use 5-10 deadzone (because my rudder pedals are "sticky" in the center,) and 30 curve.

 

The effect if the aircraft "snapping to either side," (if you mean in the roll axis,) refers to an uncoordinated stall that might be called an incipient spin. Typically you'll see the nose roll very abruptly to the left as a result of the mighty torque produced by the P-51's engine/propeller combination. For this, I would recommend carefully selecting rudder deadzone and curve settings such that you can make very fine rudder inputs, then do your best to keep the aircraft coordinated while maneuvering. That will take some time to learn.

 

Best of luck.

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A real mustang pilot is not going to be able to give you feedback on a "realistic" curve setting. Realistically, you would have no curve, but required control pressures would change with dynamic air pressure, resulting in a fluid change of stick-force per g. This is what curve is kind of attempting to simulate. For that reason, it depends on your particular joystick/equipment.

 

I hope this helps. I use 2 deadzone per stick axis. 15 curvature in roll, 25 curvature in pitch not to exceed 30. In the rudder axis, I use 5-10 deadzone (because my rudder pedals are "sticky" in the center,) and 30 curve.

 

The effect if the aircraft "snapping to either side," (if you mean in the roll axis,) refers to an uncoordinated stall that might be called an incipient spin. Typically you'll see the nose roll very abruptly to the left as a result of the mighty torque produced by the P-51's engine/propeller combination. For this, I would recommend carefully selecting rudder deadzone and curve settings such that you can make very fine rudder inputs, then do your best to keep the aircraft coordinated while maneuvering. That will take some time to learn.

 

Best of luck.

 

Aaron, thanks for you input. I meant if I'm at level flight at 400 mph, and gently pull stick 1/3 distance, the nose rises, the speed drops, and then if I pull more to 2/3 distance, the cockpit starts shaking, then 3/3 distance (full back), the aircraft just wobbles and turns (rolls) to one side, and rudder correction is severe, that with pushing stick forward, the wobbling decreases, and gentleness restored. doing this in the vertical (90 degress to horizon nose up), I want to be able to roll to my back and descend nose down 90 degrees, turn quickly and face the bandit, with gravity assisting bullets, and proper rudder ball in center, I can hit the bastard. But I just can't do it! :helpsmilie:

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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Yep, you're stalling the aircraft by increasing the angle of attack past the aircraft's limit. When you're stalling, the aircraft is slightly uncoordinated or becomes uncoordinated, and this causes the one wing to stall more and/or slightly sooner than the other. Usually it will be the left wing. (resultant left roll and yaw.)

 

If you're looking to recreate that godawful cheesy scene from "Red Tails," don't bother, it ain't real. ;) Otherwise, your best bet is to reduce the amount of back-pressure you apply to your stick during the slowest part of that loop, and apply enough right rudder to center the "ball" or "inclinometer" in the cockpit. (Google "inclinometer.") As you slow down, more right rudder will be required.

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As Aaron said, a simming joystick won't ever be able to match the real stick, for a large number of reasons. Direct input is the closest one can get to real aircraft controls, but this will still be greatly more difficult than real, and also still won't match because of the necessary discrepancy between sim trim and real trim (necessary because we don't all have floor-mounted force-feedback joysticks capable of withstanding a 250 lb. pull).

 

The first time I ever flew a real airplane, I came home afterwards, gave a long, hard glare at my simming joystick and pedals, and then immediately took all curves and dead zones off in the software, and never went back to using them. I managed to achieve an overall average of ~27% fighter-to-fighter gunnery accuracy in Rise of Flight multiplayer (over a sampling of several hundred thousand rounds fired), so, as long as you have a decent joystick and pedals, curves are not at all necessary to make precise motions.

 

I confess that I can't hold our P-51's nose steady at present, but, I think, with practice and correct trim settings, I'll be able to do so, despite her highly-sensitive elevator. One thing that can help if you don't have a precise joystick is to trim slightly nose-high or nose-low, and simply hold the joystick slightly foreward or backward (respectively) to maintain level flight. The reason for this is that most simming joysticks have imprecision around the center due to the centering mechanisms and mechanical play. By holding the joystick a bit forward of center, you can avoid the imprecise center without sacrificing precision elsewhere (as you do if you use a curve, which lowers precision in one area of the joystick's range of motion in order to give a margin of error in another area).


Edited by Echo38
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If you're looking to recreate that godawful cheesy scene from "Red Tails," don't bother, it ain't real. ;) Otherwise, your best bet is to reduce the amount of back-pressure you apply to your stick during the slowest part of that loop, and apply enough right rudder to center the "ball" or "inclinometer" in the cockpit. (Google "inclinometer.") As you slow down, more right rudder will be required.

 

 

Really? I doubt it was this smooth but I don't discard this veterans story!!

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Timmy, that's the History Channel's artist's idea of what the maneuver looked like, not the pilot's. The pilot didn't animate the thing, he just explained what he did. Unfortunately, History Channel animated it wrong; it's bogus. None of the Second World War production prop fighters had supermaneuverability capability. The CoG, TtW, etc. simply don't allow for it.

 

What the pilot was describing would have looked quite different if he'd used his hands to show us, or if he'd animated it himself, or even if he had been present during the animation process to correct the animator's error. Really, the Dogfights series has bad animations all around--they portray things wrong virtually every time, and not only by a little bit. That's what happens when you let an animator (who has no experience with ACM) guess what the pilot meant, instead of using a good physics program and having the real pilot approve the final result. Dogfights is what history would have looked like if the Second World War were fought within MSCFS--and I'm not talking about the graphics, but the very poor physics.

 

If you listen to what Col. Candelaria actually said, he described a sort of hammerhead or wing-over, not some crazy cobra thing on the yaw axis like the one that the History Channel animator fabricated. Aaron's right; the stupid P-51 cobra from Red Tails is bravo-sierra and nothing else; AoA was limited to approximately 30 degrees for all of the conventional prop planes. What a joke, and shame on History Channel for propagating misinformation in a field already so difficult to learn.


Edited by Echo38
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20 degrees for pitch and yaw

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  • ED Team
guys, please I need expert opinion on this:

 

I set pitch axis curvature to 59

roll axis curvature to 40

rudder axis curvature to 35.

 

now it takes considerable pull force to come from a dive compared to default settings. trimming, however, is more accurate. could ED/ a real mustang pilot/ a real prop pilot give feedback on the most realistic curve setting for the mustang's pitch/roll/yaw axes?

 

I wasn't comfy with the new setting, I reverted to default 0/0/0 curvature.

 

Also, I find that it is hard somehow to maneuver the plane without applying too much force and snapping to either side. Is that what accelerated stall is? I was trying to put the bandit AI on my 6, take him up 90 degrees and snap roll to the vertical using rudder on, so I can come down and have him on my sights with gravity blessing to kick the shit out of him, but AI always seems to be very accurate. I set my fuel to 50% and AI fuel to 75% with similar guns only loadouts, and I still can't tag the bastards.. What is the ratio to correcting AI weight? 1:2 or??

 

 

0/0/and any curvature you like. I use about 12 0r even 20 for yaw

 

The maneuver you described is very hard to perform correct and it is much harder to do it stable. Snap roll is a post-stall rotation and thus is a little bit unpredictable/ Moreover, this roll is prohibited for P-51. I understand where the idea came from... but please keep in mind that it was only ONCE and was not common combat practice. I think that the pilot was extremely lucky that he did not get spin and managed to catch his opponent in the gunsight. In the real case we do not know neither initial speeds of the plane nor their actual weights.

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0/0/and any curvature you like. I use about 12 0r even 20 for yaw

 

The maneuver you described is very hard to perform correct and it is much harder to do it stable. Snap roll is a post-stall rotation and thus is a little bit unpredictable/ Moreover, this roll is prohibited for P-51. I understand where the idea came from... but please keep in mind that it was only ONCE and was not common combat practice. I think that the pilot was extremely lucky that he did not get spin and managed to catch his opponent in the gunsight. In the real case we do not know neither initial speeds of the plane nor their actual weights.

 

I don't know where it came from. I swear! Please enlighten me! Has this been done IRL with success?

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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Well I am happy with my joystick set up now, messed around with the curves etc and the plane now performs less violently and is less likely to drop a wing. Although if I do get a bit ham-fisted it lets me know with enough time to do something about it. Getting less spins and high speed stalls too. All good.

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  • 3 years later...

 

Really? I doubt it was this smooth but I don't discard this veterans story!!

 

Sounds more like he *did* stall it and drop a wing violently then caught it after one 'flick' and somewhere during that he was lucky to have the 109 pass his nose and lucky that his snapshot not only hit the 109 but hit it somewhere vital. Indeed, what he described doing to initiate the maneuver is exactly what you would so during your PPL training to cause a spin so you can practice spin recovery. Even in DCS if you pull too many Gs you can accidently flick roll through 90 degrees faster than you could with proper aileron control while still finding it easy to recover though it is quite unpredictable and leaves you with very little E so it is not advisable to do it on purpose.

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  • 2 weeks later...
As Aaron said, a simming joystick won't ever be able to match the real stick, for a large number of reasons. Direct input is the closest one can get to real aircraft controls, but this will still be greatly more difficult than real, and also still won't match because of the necessary discrepancy between sim trim and real trim (necessary because we don't all have floor-mounted force-feedback joysticks capable of withstanding a 250 lb. pull).

 

The first time I ever flew a real airplane, I came home afterwards, gave a long, hard glare at my simming joystick and pedals, and then immediately took all curves and dead zones off in the software, and never went back to using them. I managed to achieve an overall average of ~27% fighter-to-fighter gunnery accuracy in Rise of Flight multiplayer (over a sampling of several hundred thousand rounds fired), so, as long as you have a decent joystick and pedals, curves are not at all necessary to make precise motions.

 

I confess that I can't hold our P-51's nose steady at present, but, I think, with practice and correct trim settings, I'll be able to do so, despite her highly-sensitive elevator. One thing that can help if you don't have a precise joystick is to trim slightly nose-high or nose-low, and simply hold the joystick slightly foreward or backward (respectively) to maintain level flight. The reason for this is that most simming joysticks have imprecision around the center due to the centering mechanisms and mechanical play. By holding the joystick a bit forward of center, you can avoid the imprecise center without sacrificing precision elsewhere (as you do if you use a curve, which lowers precision in one area of the joystick's range of motion in order to give a margin of error in another area).

 

This is from a long time ago, but...what?...It all comes down to personal preference but the curves add more realism IMO. I say that because in a real plane you have to actually move the stick or yoke when you're flying. Without a curve, a bit of slight pressure will have you in a snap roll. lol

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Discussing this without confining it to a single brand/model of joystick is pointless. All joysticks have their individual characteristics, and I'm guessing that even identical joysticks may even have differences too.

 

However, all that said, my joystick (Thrustmaster Warthog) has a 30 cm extension tube, and I run the Mustang at 0/0/0, and have never had any difficulties in control in any axis.

 

Bottom line is that you need to experiment, and regardless of what the prototype felt like, just set everything to suit your personal choice once you feel you have what you need.

 

Using someone else's recommendations may be a good point to start, but it might also prove to be totally unsuited to your own set-up. I have a feeling that is why the developers never nail down a perfect joystick profile - there simply is no such thing given the miriad combinations of controllers out there.

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I'm confused--well most of the time anyway :huh:--. I've got an Thrustmaster Warthog too, with 20cm of extension. On Pitch and Roll I have both Axis Saturations set to 100, Dead Zone 0, but Curvature 25.

 

Even with these setting, when trying to do a 2 wheel landing I'm just doing tiny millimeter adjustments and I feel like I'm very close to over-steering :cry:.

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I'm confused--well most of the time anyway :huh:--. I've got an Thrustmaster Warthog too, with 20cm of extension. On Pitch and Roll I have both Axis Saturations set to 100, Dead Zone 0, but Curvature 25.

 

Even with these setting, when trying to do a 2 wheel landing I'm just doing tiny millimeter adjustments and I feel like I'm very close to over-steering :cry:.

Mine is a some 20cm extension also and I don't need curves at all. I like to set some deadzone in every module, also P-51, but just a tiny bit may be 3 to 5. You sure everything's right?

 

S!


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