so who flies by feel and who flies by performance charts?

Is that what this thread is about? The idea that some people think flying is either about ignoring all numbers (which makes no sense because you have instruments everywhere) or about doing nothing but reading performance charts in one hand while flying with the other?

 

 

Welcome to the internet, home of the false binary argument.

You just made a good point about your own post. :)

I guess I am too 'dumb' to understand these charts. If said charts are useful, there should be some training to allow the uninitiated to a) make sense of them and b) apply them in the air. :)

You can make sense of them while you sit calmly on your couch. How about doing it by memory while pushing switches at gun point? :)

I guess I am too 'dumb' to understand these charts. If said charts are useful, there should be some training to allow the uninitiated to a) make sense of them and b) apply them in the air. :)

Training usually comes with everything involving flying. Are there any specific charts you're talking about? Maybe I missed where someone pointed them out.

You just made a good point about your own post. :)

Oh good, we've graduated to this phase of the discussion. :laugh:

Training usually comes with everything involving flying. Are there any specific charts you're talking about? Maybe I missed where someone pointed them out.

Somewhere here on the forums I saw some "sustained turn rate" (or some/such) charts. I looked at them for a while, and didn't "get" them. Like a fish out of water. There are also other charts that come to mind, e.g. compass deviation, missile effectiveness at certain altitudes, etc, etc. :)

Not to mention, some of them were even in Russian. ;)

Some types of charts are basically universal in terms of how you read them, its a scheme and once you learn it it becomes clear.

In the case of the A-10A's -1 supplement it has a lengthy explanation of how to read every single chart presented. It also includes lots of little side charts with it that basically boil some of the charts to rules of thumb.

In terms of applying these figures to daily flying sometimes its blatantly obvious what they're intended for, such as: "OPTIMUM CRUISE ALTITUDE FOR SHORT-RANGE MISSIONS Standard Day"

Some types of charts are basically universal in terms of how you read them, its a scheme and once you learn it it becomes clear.

 

In the case of the A-10A's -1 supplement it has a lengthy explanation of how to read every single chart presented. It also includes lots of little side charts with it that basically boil some of the charts to rules of thumb.

 

In terms of applying these figures to daily flying sometimes its blatantly obvious what they're intended for, such as: "OPTIMUM CRUISE ALTITUDE FOR SHORT-RANGE MISSIONS Standard Day"

Guess I am most "intrigued" by these: https://www.google.com/search?q=sustained+turn+rate+charts&espv=2&biw=1427&bih=1311&tbm=isch&imgil=HWkkxh8gpPaDeM%253A%253BNOA7-gX8xdjOPM%253Bhttp%25253A%25252F%25252Fforums.eagle.ru%25252Fshowthread.php%25253Ft%2525253D98497&source=iu&pf=m&fir=HWkkxh8gpPaDeM%253A%252CNOA7-gX8xdjOPM%252C_&usg=__jOLoCWa9x4PRwqma1eWUHok-bcg%3D&ved=0CCcQyjc&ei=5an3VKHUEYSxggSW9QI#imgrc=HWkkxh8gpPaDeM%253A%3BNtXzKHUpXEHtlM%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fi40.photobucket.com%252Falbums%252Fe215%252Fzulu64%252Fmir200ps.jpg%3Bhttp%253A%252F%252Fforums.eagle.ru%252Fshowthread.php%253Ft%253D98497%2526langid%253D2%3B711%3B635

This one's easy. Start with the speed and follow the pattern as drawn. You can then determine what G load achieves sustained turn performance at a given weight and altitude.

To understand what it means also involves knowing what weight your plane is typically, what drag you have (I don't know how these old figures relate to modern ordnance so just assume 4-8 is typical for a loaded A-10) and so you can get a feeling for what loads to shoot for when turning at a given regime.

So look at things form the perspective of typical ops. You know you're in a knife fight, you're gonna have to turn to defend yourself. You drop everything you can and are left with 2*AIM-9, 1*TGP, 1*ALQ-184. With 60% fuel the plane weighs about 35000 pounds. We know the engines produce better thrust low so you're gonna want to help yourself by getting into the weeds so ignore higher altitude figures.

Great, now lets look at the chart.

300KIAS@5000MSL gives us a sustained turn rate of 2G

300KIAS@MSL gives us about 2.6G

250KIAS@5000MSL gives us about 2.7G

250KIAS@MSL gives us about 3.1G

225KIAS@MSL gives us about 2.9G

275KIAS@MSL gives us about 2.9G

So we can see that to stay near 3Gs of potential turn performance without bleeding off speed badly you need to stay low and drop lots of stuff. If you're ingressing at max load and full fuel though you're in trouble since at 45000 lbs at 250 knots at sea level you're down to 2.4Gs. Turning will inevitably knock you down to the middle 200s but you can diligently avoid getting any slower by not exceeding the above mentioned loads.

Go compare that to turn rate and radius charts and a bunch of other stuff and you can estimate which part of the envelope the A-10 has its best chance in.

Thanks for the detailed information, P*Funk. :)

No problemo. :)

my god, guys I'm referring to performance charts, not nav charts...in the heat of combat, do you really do maths? So in a P-51 for example, you consumed but 10 gallons of the left tank, the right is full, the fuselage is 0, then you run into a 109 AI, he climbs vertical, you follow with ball in center, do you really calculate the performance for instantaneous and sustained turn??

you accidentally squeezed the gun by your excitement, do you calculate your mass then trace a graph? or just practice turning around for example a TV tower, putting camera in the top then flyby view and look at the stick on your table or floor, with flyby view to get an estimate of your pull and adjust, rinse and repeat then do this daily (or more realistically-weekly) then spend a year doing so, then replay that scenario with the same 109 AI but now your muscle memorized the stick, you know the limits without even looking at instruments, you can feel if you're close to stall, you're climbing with wrong rudder trim and pedal pressure, you're nearing the edge of your limits, then you relax and carry the fight to him.

Fly by how it feels but like to keep within real world boundaries.

my god, guys I'm referring to performance charts, not nav charts...in the heat of combat, do you really do maths? So in a P-51 for example, you consumed but 10 gallons of the left tank, the right is full, the fuselage is 0, then you run into a 109 AI, he climbs vertical, you follow with ball in center, do you really calculate the performance for instantaneous and sustained turn??

 

you accidentally squeezed the gun by your excitement, do you calculate your mass then trace a graph? or just practice turning around for example a TV tower, putting camera in the top then flyby view and look at the stick on your table or floor, with flyby view to get an estimate of your pull and adjust, rinse and repeat then do this daily (or more realistically-weekly) then spend a year doing so, then replay that scenario with the same 109 AI but now your muscle memorized the stick, you know the limits without even looking at instruments, you can feel if you're close to stall, you're climbing with wrong rudder trim and pedal pressure, you're nearing the edge of your limits, then you relax and carry the fight to him.

^^^^ pretty much this

Bad example, I think. I spent fifteen seconds last night memorising the stall speeds for all aircraft in the world during the vertical part of a hammerhead entry... ;)

Its not about entering the hammerhead. It is about entering the hammerhead as late as possible so you will be able to turn around on a foe behind you when he is just about to stall, and you reverse your position and have him in your sights when he is tumbling or spining.:pilotfly:

my god, guys I'm referring to performance charts, not nav charts...in the heat of combat, do you really do maths? So in a P-51 for example, you consumed but 10 gallons of the left tank, the right is full, the fuselage is 0, then you run into a 109 AI, he climbs vertical, you follow with ball in center, do you really calculate the performance for instantaneous and sustained turn??

 

you accidentally squeezed the gun by your excitement, do you calculate your mass then trace a graph? or just practice turning around for example a TV tower, putting camera in the top then flyby view and look at the stick on your table or floor, with flyby view to get an estimate of your pull and adjust, rinse and repeat then do this daily (or more realistically-weekly) then spend a year doing so, then replay that scenario with the same 109 AI but now your muscle memorized the stick, you know the limits without even looking at instruments, you can feel if you're close to stall, you're climbing with wrong rudder trim and pedal pressure, you're nearing the edge of your limits, then you relax and carry the fight to him.

This is such a vulgarized interpretation of the conversation. This is so stupid as to be insulting to the concept of conversation.

You don't calculate anything from a chart in the middle of a fight. Who said that? Nobody.

This is taking me straight back to those arguments with clowns on sim racing boards who insist racing is pure feel and that numbers have no meaning.

my god, guys I'm referring to performance charts, not nav charts...in the heat of combat, do you really do maths? So in a P-51 for example, you consumed but 10 gallons of the left tank, the right is full, the fuselage is 0, then you run into a 109 AI, he climbs vertical, you follow with ball in center, do you really calculate the performance for instantaneous and sustained turn??

 

you accidentally squeezed the gun by your excitement, do you calculate your mass then trace a graph? or just practice turning around for example a TV tower, putting camera in the top then flyby view and look at the stick on your table or floor, with flyby view to get an estimate of your pull and adjust, rinse and repeat then do this daily (or more realistically-weekly) then spend a year doing so, then replay that scenario with the same 109 AI but now your muscle memorized the stick, you know the limits without even looking at instruments, you can feel if you're close to stall, you're climbing with wrong rudder trim and pedal pressure, you're nearing the edge of your limits, then you relax and carry the fight to him.

+1

This is such a vulgarized interpretation of the conversation. This is so stupid as to be insulting to the concept of conversation.

 

You don't calculate anything from a chart in the middle of a fight. Who said that? Nobody.

 

This is taking me straight back to those arguments with clowns on sim racing boards who insist racing is pure feel and that numbers have no meaning.

My friend I wasn't meant to mock any of the comments, I just share what I do. I do agree that charts are important but knowing corner speed, instant turn, sustained turn figures helps if the fight is going at planned altitude.

Yes, tactical decision making is voodoo. No sense trying to put numbers on it. :thumbup:

I would suspect that being in a sim, many people can find and learn some of the performance of an aircraft without fear of dying, by intentionally flying all over the documented performance and not caring about much of it.

As a side effect they learn the performance of some aspects by trial and error, which is simulations greatest asset, the lack of death/injury.

I would go on to say that those that use charts to find this out faster could perform better (assuming the sim is faithful to the chart) but I don't think those people are in the majority.

This is opinion based on my observation that no one in my SQN of 60 has ever mentioned a performance envelope chart in the last 6 months. You can fault that data as much as you like, but it's also evident in this thread.

Neither throwing the plane about nor knowing charts really makes you better. You might get lucky and gain a small advantage here and there.

Knowing how to use that knowledge makes you better.

If you know how to teach it, you know what you're doing. If you think you can teach it and you're doing it wrong, you're teaching everyone bad habits.

I never fly by charts because I don't believe in them.

I do agree that charts are important but...

:huh: