Su-27 vs F-15C

How dog-fighting 2 su-27s in excellent difficulty with an f-15c is basically an insanity test from hell...

:helpsmilie::helpsmilie::helpsmilie:

Before we start:

I just want to say, this is based on my own experiences, and im writing this down so maybe some of you guys with much more experience than me can maybe tell me some good tactics to use in this type of scenario, or maybe some of you have the same thoughts as me, and would like to share their experience...

:helpsmilie::helpsmilie::helpsmilie:

1.) The dogfight..

So, usually i practice my skills in dog-fighting in a scenario i'd like to call "The Merge", where 2 aircraft, are facing one another not far away from each other at 270 knots and once they cross, the dogfight starts. This is the scenario i used for my dog-fight with the 2 sukhois

This is a screenshot of f-15 vs 2 su-27 in my editor:

Now, the dogfight..

This is seriously difficult and it is mostly because the f-15 wasnt really able to point its nose in any direction, and it feels so heavy, and to add to that, 2 sukhois are shooting at just YOU, and its a huge miracle if the r-73 missiles they have, missed..

After countless attempts I finally got to shoot down both sukhois and heres the video if you want to have a look..

[ame]

Keep in mind I was just really lucky that in 0:45 I was in the perfect position to kill the second Flanker, in my other attempts, he would be in perfect position for a missile shot.

It would be easier if:

1.) I had an aim-9x, which will mean i would be more likely to hit them, especially head-on

2.) An HMD, which will make up for how difficult it is to point the f-15's nose

3.) if the su-27 used r-60s instead

4.) If there was only 1 sukhoi <-- Did this many times and won many times

5.) If were in an F-22

6.) Possibly if the sukhoi pilot is using another tactic

7.) I lower the difficulty (Duh)

2.) MIG-29G

I added this part because I did this dogfight again, albeit with a mig-29g and it really made a diffrence.

How you ask ?

The Mig is FAAAAAAAR more resposive, and the part I really love is how you can point your nose at any direction, and that makes it easier to shoot your enemies down, I didnt even use the HMD in this dogfight to use the missiles, which btw are the same that the sukhois use (R-73) and it is superb

And this made me realize something, if i was in an aircraft such as something like an f-16 with aim-9x and hmd, I would also shoot down those 2 sukhois just as easily as i was in the mig-29, and it will probably be even easier in something like a Eurofighter which i believe has IMMENSE nose pointing capabilities and a monster engine.

3.) Conclusion

In conclusion, the f-15c should just fight the enemies in the BVR arena, where its radars and AMRAAMs dominate, and even if it were to dogfight, fight something which is less agile than a Flanker, and doesn't attack in packs, other than that, leave it to the f-22 (Which btw would easily win this dogfight hands down). For those of you wondering why I wrote an entire thread about an f-15 fighting in a place it would definitely lose in, is mainly because its a possible scenario, they dont produce the f-22's anymore and this proves that we need to create tactics or plans so that the f-15 can prevent a scenario like this. Fortunately the f-15c's that the air force decided to keep to fight alongside the f-22s are getting upgrades such as new computers,radar, an IRST pod, and the possibility to double its missile load, and that will increase its ability to fight against possible future enemies.

What we learned today:

1.) In this sort of dogfight, you're better off with an f-22, Mig-29, Eurofighter, or an F-16

2.) The USAF better make sure the f-15 doesnt get to this situation, or at least the USAF better make sure those upgrades will ensure that f-15 wins a possible engagement like this.

3.) ED really needs to make a new module of the f-15 with these new upgrades

Thanks For reading, sorry for any mistakes

it's not ed's job to ensure you have an easier time shooting down bots.

That's strange, Mig29 used to be the worst of the 3 with a very bad turn rate. AFM introduction must have changed balance.

This "analysis" went wrong the moment you decided to set starting speed to 270 kts where the F-15C doesn't turn very well.

Instead, set it to 500 kts to have good initial maneuverability.

Shooting down two AI controlled flankers should not be a problem in this scenario really... I would recommend less analysis and more practice :)

Overall, it seems you often pull too hard on the stick, leaving your airspeed below 200 kts where you won't be able to turn much at all. If you want to keep turning, you need to pull less to maintain a higher airspeed, this will allow you to keep turning.

Remember that optimal airspeed for sustained horizontal turn is somewhere between 350-500 kts, depending on your weight (fuel mainly).

flanker too stronk. I guess Im doing something wrong in BFM. :helpsmilie:

This "analysis" went wrong the moment you decided to set starting speed to 270 kts where the F-15C doesn't turn very well.

 

Instead, set it to 500 kts to have good initial maneuverability.

 

Shooting down two AI controlled flankers should not be a problem in this scenario really... I would recommend less analysis and more practice :)

 

Overall, it seems you often pull too hard on the stick, leaving your airspeed below 200 kts where you won't be able to turn much at all. If you want to keep turning, you need to pull less to maintain a higher airspeed, this will allow you to keep turning.

 

Remember that optimal airspeed for sustained horizontal turn is somewhere between 350-500 kts, depending on your weight (fuel mainly).

You sir, just fixed EVERYTHING !!

I set my speed to 500 knots and halved the fuel, and the plane became seriously agile, and it really made the dogfight much easier.

Do you think that changing the speed and fuel of the sukhoi will make it harder ??

Thanks,

Prototypebayu8

Su-27 vs F-15C

Hi,

I've made a custom mission for learning 1v1 long range engagements. The mission is:

1x Su-27 (Me) R-27ER, R-27ET, R-73.

1x F-15C (Excellent AI) AIM-120B, AIM-9.

Both hot, 8km altitude, 80km range.

I've been about 25% victorious so far, done about 25 times in total.

Firstly, the Su-27 RWR. I rely on it a lot, one thing I've noticed is this. In the track I've uploaded, the enemy F-15C will get the first shot off, an AIM-120B and then he will start flanking immediately, does this pretty much every time. I can pretty much evade this first one 100% of the time, but the RWR only seems to start it's missile launch warning when the missile is already about 60% through it's journey to me. Why is this? I've started using the enemy's flank action as an indicator for missile launch now, can bleed it's energy more efficiently using this method while retaining mine.

Following on from that, after it's evaded, there have also been scenarios where further AIM-120's are fired but the RWR still reports the old one as the primary threat.

What I noticed after that was, a last AIM-120B was fired, and I didn't get this on the RWR at all, the last one that got me. What's that about? I thought it was a heater initially in the game, but my Tacview says it's AIM-120B. This is captured in the Tacview.

One more thing about R-27ET. I use this missile to sometimes get a very quick shot off while I'm already evading an AIM-120. This is usually unsuccessful though. Even though I get the LA in EOS mode, in Tacview I've seen the missile not track at all. Even though it's shot hot right on target. I fire the shot while already in mid turn, stop the turn momentarily and level horizon to fire, then immediately resume the hard turn to evade.

On the contrary, I've also witnessed me having a strong EOS target lock, R-27ET selected, within rMax, but no LA? R-27ER will still have LA when I switch weapons.

This is all a learning experience for me and overall I'm enjoying it a lot, but some confusions. :joystick:

Tacview-20160820-185335-DCS.txt.zip

Aim120 is active radar missile, you will get warning when missile is within 6-7 nautical miles from you. This is when the missile activates its own radar.

The RWR reports the closest active radar missile as primary threat, even if that missile is out of energy.

RWR has blind areas, it only sees within +/-30 degrees up and down in every direction.(360 degrees) These blind areas tilt and turn as your plane tilts and turns. For example, if missile is coming from 3 o clock or 9 o clock, and you bank 90 degrees, missile warning stops. However, the missile is still coming!

R-27ET is a heat seeking missile, it needs a heat signature. If target is not afterburning, you won't get LA at longer ranges. Also, the missile easily goes after flares.

I don't know about AI, but when a Su-27 is flown by a human pilot, fuel weight matters a lot. It actually matters even more than in F-15C. I prefer less than 50% fuel when dogfighting in the Flanker. Anything more than that, and the sustained turn rate suffers a lot, especially at slow speeds where it becomes a brick.

Starting speed matters of course, but in the end the AI is fairly simple and once you've learned the basics (how to turn somewhat effectively, how to shoot the gun) you will want to play against human opponents to get more challenge and to make it more realistic also :)

The main thing about this dogfight is basically to kill the flankers before it gets to use its r-73 missiles, so its basically who can get to weapon parameters first

The reason why you get the MLW really late is because he fired at you in TWS. You will get no lock indication because he hasn't locked you on his radar; he only "tagged" you to get your information about your heading, speed, altitude...etc. This way, he can fire a missile directed at you without you knowing. Only once the missile goes active on its own radar and locks you up (about 6 miles aways from you) then you will get the MLW. As for the ET, although you may get a signal from the EOS to lock up, you might not get the LA even past rMax. I'm not sure why but I theorize that maybe the seeker head of the missile hasn't picked up the signature yet and only the EOS did? Not sure.

Well, you have the best chance to dodge R73 if you cut your throttle (preferably to idle) and pop lots of flares before the enemy missile has even left the rail...

Well, you have the best chance to dodge R73 if you cut your throttle (preferably to idle) and pop lots of flares before the enemy missile has even left the rail...

Once i was lucky enough to do that, and the missile missed, only if the f-15 engines could be more responsive and cut on demand

Hey, dont saudi and korean f-15's have the GE engines on them, wonder if theyre any better, i heard theyre much better than the PW engines..

He's not flanking he's cranking, using the F-pole to increase the distance your missile has to travel.

You have to force the fight more, don't let him dictate what happens, get your missiles out early and try and boss the fight, don't be scared of low energy missiles on you.

Su27 vs F-15.txt.rar

He's not flanking he's cranking, using the F-pole to increase the distance your missile has to travel.

You have to force the fight more, don't let him dictate what happens, get your missiles out early and try and boss the fight, don't be scared of low energy missiles on you.

I refrained from using my ER's here because I was trying to practise getting within close range where the Su-27 is meant to have an advantage, but have been struggling to implement that strategy.

I have practised using ER's also while getting close which does give me a higher victory rate as it keeps him busy while I close in enough for my R-73's. In this situation many times we kill each other!

I find it so hard to detect his AIM-9 and also keeping sight of him when I go defensive. When I lose him he gets me every time, as there's a heater coming at me already if I spot him again.

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

you want to knifefight a gun-toting guy by charging straight at him?

you know its ridiculous when you see a person do that, but when its planes suddenly it's okay?

how about taking a step back and changing how you approach the engage, get in close by finding ways around the guy using your passive sensor advantage.

dont shoot yourself in the foot and then cry that it hurts.

It's doable to employ your style of combat against AI as AI doesn't spamm missiles at you. Just do old Lomac barrel roll tactic while at the same time look at your g meter to not over g depend on your load out, the new FM will crush your wings if you do that...

Against human or online...well it's a whole different story. It can be easy or hard depending the enemy skill and experience. Against Stuge you're gonna be having hard time (he's one of Su-27 ace) but against me you probably score numbers of kill : )

Gam Zeh Ya'avor - King Salomon

I refrained from using my ER's here because I was trying to practise getting within close range where the Su-27 is meant to have an advantage, but have been struggling to implement that strategy.

 

I have practised using ER's also while getting close which does give me a higher victory rate as it keeps him busy while I close in enough for my R-73's. In this situation many times we kill each other!

 

I find it so hard to detect his AIM-9 and also keeping sight of him when I go defensive. When I lose him he gets me every time, as there's a heater coming at me already if I spot him again.

 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Yes it's very hard to detect AIM-9 shots. So why not do pre-emptive flares after knowing this information? Within 4 miles defend for AIM-9. Even when you don't see it. Cut back on the throttle. Dispense flares and make a hard turn. Not to hard cause you need that speed because you are merged with him after this. And prepare for second shot So if you have difficulties holding your speed, start the engagement with a higher speed so you have some room to bleed some.

I refrained from using my ER's here because I was trying to practise getting within close range where the Su-27 is meant to have an advantage, but have been struggling to implement that strategy.

 

I have practised using ER's also while getting close which does give me a higher victory rate as it keeps him busy while I close in enough for my R-73's. In this situation many times we kill each other!

 

I find it so hard to detect his AIM-9 and also keeping sight of him when I go defensive. When I lose him he gets me every time, as there's a heater coming at me already if I spot him again.

 

Sent from my SM-N9005 using Tapatalk

Surely the best way to practice getting in close is by denying him the opportunity to control the fight. Practice the fight, launch your ERs and forget trying to oursmart a dumb AI it'll just lead you to bad habits.

You say you've practiced with ERs but it ends in a mutual kill, why do you think not launching ERs is going to fair better. Prepare for AIM-9 launches just as you are entering range for your 73s.

Once i was lucky enough to do that, and the missile missed, only if the f-15 engines could be more responsive and cut on demand

 

Hey, dont saudi and korean f-15's have the GE engines on them, wonder if theyre any better, i heard theyre much better than the PW engines..

keep your AB out of stage 5 as you approach the merge. F15 spools down from stage 4 and below much faster than from stage 5.

The -220s are very responsive. Manage your expectations ;)

There's no jet engine in the world that will 'cut on demand'.

Once i was lucky enough to do that, and the missile missed, only if the f-15 engines could be more responsive and cut on demand

 

Hey, dont saudi and korean f-15's have the GE engines on them, wonder if theyre any better, i heard theyre much better than the PW engines..

Tried about 20 more times today, trying to take these points into account. General strategy I've been trying is to fire an ER as soon as I break through his jamming, and then I start to bleed his AIM-120 slowly by gaining altitude or trying to get it on either side of me while going hot on him again. I try to brave it out here either by climbing or keeping it on my side but not bleeding my own energy. I try to keep an eye of the RWR and try to make out how much speed the missile has. Both missiles would pretty much always miss here, then we turn again hot, and depending on range I would fire another ER or ET, and he would fire another AIM-120.

If the fight isn't decided here, the next bit is normally decided wether or not I can still see him or not! It's very frustrating when I end up losing him, and it happens quite a lot. If I fire an ET here, I go strong defensive against a high energy AIM-120 but then I usually end up losing him, and then I normally get shot down. If I fire an ER, the radar lock doesn't let me lose him but I'm restricted on my defense so sometimes get hit.

If I don't lose him, then I have a good chance to get the victory as I'm in R-73 range, and just try to go flares defensive for his AIM-9.

I've attached some tracks so please take a look and feed back, I'm finding this a lot of fun and any further training ideas are welcome :)

Tacview-20160823-210710-DCS.txt.zip

Shooting at max range gives a important thing away that can bring you in a disadvantage. You show your opponent that you are not confident. That you try to make him scared so you hope he reacts on that early (at least in DCS). You gave away your intention early so he has longer time to think about what his next move should be. Better to wait with that warning shot till you are a bit closer so he has no choice to react. Even that it's still a low Pk shot. It's hard to find that fine line fighting against a AIM-120C platform. But with flying in a two ship you can actually turn this into a advantage.

Can I ask why the split-s at 0:06 and why such an aggressive lead roll at 1:01?

Shooting at max range gives a important thing away that can bring you in a disadvantage. You show your opponent that you are not confident. That you try to make him scared so you hope he reacts on that early (at least in DCS). You gave away your intention early so he has longer time to think about what his next move should be. Better to wait with that warning shot till you are a bit closer so he has no choice to react. Even that it's still a low Pk shot. It's hard to find that fine line fighting against a AIM-120C platform. But with flying in a two ship you can actually turn this into a advantage.

The problem is this guy is going against AI, and they do not act the same as a human counterpart