How to Land the Dora

From my conversation with him he intimated less then 2 seconds, more like 1 second from idle to full beans.

 

I will go with his record over events over any paper document, after all he had to put his own life on the line flying the real ones :)

 

Pman

Agree, but I would go with a modern 109 pilot more than vets. I've also met and know many veterans interviews and sadly I've to say after 70 years memories are usually... weird. May be he remembers 1-2 seconds and that means say 5-6 real secs or whatever, he's just recalling a "feeling" and that's way tricky. Human mind and long time memories aren't quite reliable. We've to listen to them, but then a refining of those memories is needed.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm with the straight ahead power and I do like that myself, but if you ask me right now I can't tell you if I spend 2, 4 or 1/2 a second to full power. Probably telling a newbie, 2 secs just to say, doesn't helps him to get the feeling he needs.

 

S!

Agree, but I would go with a modern 109 pilot more than vets. I've also met and know many veterans interviews and sadly I've to say after 70 years memories are usually... weird. May be he remembers 1-2 seconds and that means say 5-6 real secs or whatever, he's just recalling a "feeling" and that's way tricky. Human mind and long time memories aren't quite reliable. We've to listen to them, but then a refining of those memories is needed.

 

Don't get me wrong, I'm with the straight ahead power and I do like that myself, but if you ask me right now I can't tell you if I spend 2, 4 or 1/2 a second to full power. Probably telling a newbie, 2 secs just to say, doesn't helps him to get the feeling he needs.

 

S!

 

Funny you should say that as I was sharing a beer with the pilot of Airbus's 109 at Flying Legends :)

 

Pman

Funny you should say that as I was sharing a beer with the pilot of Airbus's 109 at Flying Legends :)

 

Pman

That's why I say :smilewink:. I would prefer his present experience (and knowledge 18 years old pilot boys hadn't back then) as an accurate reference than 70 years old memories, that said with hurt because my respect to those vets.

 

S!

That's why I say :smilewink:. I would prefer his present experience (and knowledge 18 years old pilot boys hadn't back then) as an accurate reference than 70 years old memories, that said with hurt because my respect to those vets.

 

S!

 

The point being that he told me the same thing as Erich ;) although for operational reasons they have different processes

 

Pman

The point being that he told me the same thing as Erich ;) although for operational reasons they have different processes

 

Pman

So that's a confirmation as I said, and it's perfect. But any discrepancies between them I would prefer Klaus Plasa info.

 

S!

(Erich never fixed the tailwheel! I asked why, and he answered that it helped him to fill full control)

 

That is what I am talking about!

 

Tailwheel locks are for sissy's!!!!

 

 

:gun_rifle:(TAILWHEEL LOCK)

As I wrote it could have sense. If you have unstable plane at the first part of TO run (Erich never fixed the tailwheel! I asked why, and he answered that it helped him to fill full control) and if the pilot has a fast reaction the full throttle gives enough steering power to keep the plane straight even under destabisation factors, like a fan for rope walkers.

And it works in DCS as well. The more power you have the more serious deviation you can counteract without breaking to a ground loop.

 

Klaus Plaza uses 'throttle controlled" TO in 109: full right rudder and throttle for directional control.

 

I guess it's the difference between the acquired skill of a man flying it two or three times a day almost every day and an understandably cautious airshow pilot with a fistful of dollars in his hand.

That is what I am talking about!

 

Tailwheel locks are for sissy's!!!!

 

 

:gun_rifle:(TAILWHEEL LOCK)

:lol::lol::lol::lol: I guess he means Dora Yo-yo? If you can take off Bf109 without tail lock I owe you a beer :smilewink:.

 

I guess it's the difference between the acquired skill of a man flying it two or three times a day almost every day and an understandably cautious airshow pilot with a fistful of dollars in his hand.

When you pay the bills it matters mate, of course. But also remember Brunotte words saying he never flew 109 going beyond 1.2 ATA. Keep in mind surviving German pilots recorded a couple hundred hours usually, Klaus Plasa has thousands and still recording with the wide knowledge required to do so nowadays. I would take him seriously.

 

S!

When you pay the bills it matters mate, of course. But also remember Brunotte words saying he never flew 109 going beyond 1.2 ATA. Keep in mind surviving German pilots recorded a couple hundred hours usually, Klaus Plasa has thousands and still recording with the wide knowledge required to do so nowadays. I would take him seriously.

 

S!

 

I wasn't suggesting Klaus Plasa doesn't know what he's talking about, that would be daft but he's flying old aircraft with a high level of care. I'm just saying that 70 years ago or not it's unlikely Erich would forget what he did almost every day for some time and no doubt developed the technique to do it (I've briefly talked to and, on several occasions, heard Eric Brown talking and he was as lucid and clear as ever).

 

It's unlikely that any current warbird would be push that hard these days, the 'requirement' is very different.

It's unlikely that any current warbird would be push that hard these days, the 'requirement' is very different.

Of course, it should be like that for the sake of conservation. But are we discussing beyond envelope performance here? :)

 

S!

If you can take off Bf109 without tail lock I owe you a beer

 

Of course my friend, there is different gear geometry, CG location, and consequently directional stability picture in comparing the aircraft.

 

What works for one does not mean it works for the other.

 

Eric's anecdote simply speaks to the rudder effectiveness and ground handling stability picture of the FW-190.

 

It does not mean one is better than the other...just different. The Bf-109 for example was known for its very high directional stability margin on the gear. That gives it excellent braking power and resistance to nosing over. That is also why the rudder is not as effective at low speeds and I certainly would not take Eric's approach in the FW-190 as proof Bf-109 pilots did the same thing.

 

I'm just saying that 70 years ago or not it's unlikely Erich would forget what he did almost every day for some time and no doubt developed the technique to do it (I've briefly talked to and, on several occasions, heard Eric Brown talking and he was as lucid and clear as ever).

 

Certainly. Eric is an extremely valuable asset to the community and we are all most thankful for his taking the time to share his experiences!

 

It has been my experience that the misunderstanding arise on our end not the vets. In other-words, some aeronautical knowledge, military experience, and the statement in context takes on a completely different meaning than it does without that aeronautical knowledge and context.

 

Without a common experience base, it is very easy to misunderstand an innocent truth. That innocent truth then becomes an exaggerated falsehood. That is not the vets fault.

Of course, it should be like that for the sake of conservation. But are we discussing beyond envelope performance here? :)

 

S!

 

We are discussing within envelope performance and technique. Current warbirds go no-where near their envelope limits. I think Crumpp sums it up nicley.

We are discussing within envelope performance and technique. Current warbirds go no-where near their envelope limits. I think Crumpp sums it up nicley.

We were talking about taking off :), but fine.

 

Ok, you can inquire if the Russian snail-mail rules allow beer parcels... just now.

You are able to make it? Ok, I missed miserably last Duxford but if you are there next year my intention is to be there also, no joke :smilewink:.

 

S!

Ok, be ready to be surprised...

 

That beer is yours :smilewink:. Nice TO by the way. I've to try in 1.5.

 

S!

I know I'm a noob and this is a nooblet thing but I'm so damn proud of my first safe landing (no flight assist options at all) in the Fw-190 I had to clip the video outta my twitch stream...

 

YAY NO FIERY WRECK

 

Nice. Not sure which was more interesting, the landing or the facial concentration :)

I know I'm a noob and this is a nooblet thing but I'm so damn proud of my first safe landing (no flight assist options at all) in the Fw-190 I had to clip the video outta my twitch stream...

 

YAY NO FIERY WRECK

 

 

 

Good job! Keeping the stick back is key.

 

:thumbup:

Does anybody know what is the max permitted landing weight for the Dora

 

When I drop to 50% fuel load I find it a much easier bird to handle when touching down. With a full fuel load its an absolute beast.

 

The stick back thing is quirky, but the stick does not need to be all the way back. I usually have it at a little over 50% on landing and take off and its way way easier. All the way back and she kicks into an aggressive stall.

I learned to fly as a kid in Cessnas but... personally I think this whole pull stick back to lock tailwheel thing is AWFUL. Where did the Germans fall off the bus on the Bf-109's superior tail wheel lock mechanism? I don't get it lol

 

Good observation but if you fly taildraggers, it is actually pretty smart.

 

Rule number 1: Always keep the stick back.

 

http://advancedtailwheeltraining.com/tailwheel_basics

 

If you have a free castering tail-wheel on take off or landing, it can turn into a disaster real quick. Most tail-wheel locks on free castering designs are a lever in the cockpit that you have to engage. Pilots can forget to engage the lock and it is an extra step to unlock it to gain maneuverability on the ground when needed.

 

The German system allows you to just move the stick forward to unlock the tail-wheel.

 

There is nothing to forget on take off or landing and it becomes natural once you are used to it to gain the extra bit of maneuverability when taxiing.

I thought it was a great innovation!

 

It is the same on the P-51, I wonder who came up with the idea first?

Good question and interesting bit of trivia!