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The 30 mm mess up the poor mustangs...


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Today I tried for the first time shooting it out with a P-51 AI. I can outclimb, out turn, out maneuver sometimes the AI now compared to flying the P-51 against the enemy 109. The real beautiful feat is that cannon. I mean just 2 rounds turns anything to a fireball.. P-51 included... Usually critical hits to rivets, fuel, hydraulic, you name it.

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The 30 mm mess up the poor mustangs...

 

Really? The 30mm is incredibly under powered for me. In a multiplayer server, I would shoot a mustang and hit it 5-10 times with the 30mm and it would fly away like nothing happened.

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I have the same experience as SilentGun, both versus AI and humans...

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I have the same experience as SilentGun, both versus AI and humans...

 

Ditto, same here....

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qB8FlckQHcw

 

 

This document presents a test done by the US to evaluate what damage would a 30mm cannon shell inflict on a p47 fighter.

 

http://oai.dtic.mil/oai/oai?verb=get...fier=ADA800394

 

34ytp93.jpg

x1y846.jpg

 

The test shows that you have a 28% chance of killing a p47 with one shot.

And a 40% chance of doing enough damage with one shot to a p47 so that it's unable to return to base if the base Is 2 hours away or more.

 

In my video I hit the Ai p51 five times and it's flying like nothing happened(first shooting in my video).

 

 

The last shooting in my video is vs a human player flying a p51.

The document below shows that the damage a 30mm 108 cannon does is mostly to the structure of a fighter.

But vs human pilots in most cases like the above video example I kill the engine or the pilot. This is contrary to the test performed in real life.

 

Also the human flown p51 engines stop sometimes when I score hits on the p51's wings.And overall for human flown p51 the engine seems too fragile and the structure too tough compared to the historical test results I posted.

 

2s004z9.jpg

 

"A" tipe kill is : the aircraft goes down in the next five minutes.

"B" tipe kill is : the aircraft can't return to home base(because of combat damage) if the base is 2 hours flight time or more away.

 

Also no coment on the 37mm hit from the mig 15 on the p51.


Edited by otto
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My experience is the same as Wild Bill's and Sith's. A couple of rounds and they're toast (when I hit the target).

 

I also like to wait until the target fills the windshield and when the rounds hit the P51 loses it's tail section and wings, the cowling on engine, canopy is gone, plane ablaze and the pilot's dead.


Edited by Teapot

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Ditto 30mike is crazy deadly when I use it

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Those having trouble with it have to try setting a ground unit somewhere and trying killing it with the cannon, see how hard the rounds drop, the dispersion, etc.... its not great for fighters just because its hard to hit anything. Again, as I have said many times before, there are some issues with the damage model that are being looked at, but my experience for the most part are quite positive with the cannon, I cant wait till we have targets they were really utilized for...

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The advice about the ground targets is a good idea sith.... I didn't appreciate the crazy drop of the 30 until I tried that myself

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I've often tried hitting a Mustang with seven to ten (eleven once even) 3cm rounds, and it just kept flying and fighting as if nothing had happened. Checked the logs afterwards to be shocked at the amount of hits it took to finally down the Mustang in these instances.

 

Those having trouble with it have to try setting a ground unit somewhere and trying killing it with the cannon, see how hard the rounds drop, the dispersion, etc.... its not great for fighters just because its hard to hit anything. Again, as I have said many times before, there are some issues with the damage model that are being looked at, but my experience for the most part are quite positive with the cannon, I cant wait till we have targets they were really utilized for...

 

Which is surprising considering that the Mk108 was considered a very accurate gun by the LW.

 

Mk108: 100 pct dispersion zone = 3 mils

151/20: 100 pct dispersion zone = 6 mils

Ms 50cal: 100 pct dispersion zone = 8 mils

 

All data from German & US manuals.

 

Was discussed a long while back for the Il2 game:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/455156-IRL-data-to-support-better-Mk-108-accuracy-Forums

 

Thus another thing that needs looking into.


Edited by Hummingbird
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Understand that there is a mix of rounds in the Mk108, they each have sightly different characteristics as well, then add in the steadiness of the platform, speaking for myself, my nose can sway depending on the conditions, so sure, its probably pretty good sitting on the ground under ideal circumstances.

 

Also when considering hits, you have to ask yourself if they are on a part of the aircraft where the shell could pass all the way through, even on AI, penetration is modelled, try hitting a P-51 at close range with a Sabot round, many times the first round will pass thru the aircraft with little visible damage (known issue the visible damage model).

 

As for the logs afterwards, you might have seen me suggest they are far from accurate on many occasions, its a known issue. You cant test it yourself, look at the time of some of the hits and watch the replay back, many times the time of the hit dont mesh with the logs.

 

And ONE more time, I could care less what they discussed in IL2 or on their forums, it is irrelevant in this discussion. SO stop bringing old discussions to the table, instead, data, and tracks if you think you have an issue, otherwise its just hot air.

 

Bottomline, there are reported issues with the damage model, but you also have to look at your own gunnery skills, thats why I suggested that people look at the cannon against a ground vehicle so they could appreciate what the cannon is actually doing, instead of following the traces for their guns and thinking they are scoring all these cannon hits.

 

I've often tried hitting a Mustang with seven to ten (eleven once even) 3cm rounds, and it just kept flying and fighting as if nothing had happened. Checked the logs afterwards to be shocked at the amount of hits it took to finally down the Mustang in these instances.

 

 

 

Which is surprising considering that the Mk108 was considered a very accurate gun by the LW.

 

Mk108: 100 pct dispersion zone = 3 mils

151/20: 100 pct dispersion zone = 6 mils

Ms 50cal: 100 pct dispersion zone = 8 mils

 

All data from German & US manuals.

 

Was discussed a long while back for the Il2 game:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/455156-IRL-data-to-support-better-Mk-108-accuracy-Forums

 

Thus another thing that needs looking into.


Edited by NineLine

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I've often tried hitting a Mustang with seven to ten (eleven once even) 3cm rounds, and it just kept flying and fighting as if nothing had happened. Checked the logs afterwards to be shocked at the amount of hits it took to finally down the Mustang in these instances.

 

 

 

Which is surprising considering that the Mk108 was considered a very accurate gun by the LW.

 

Mk108: 100 pct dispersion zone = 3 mils

151/20: 100 pct dispersion zone = 6 mils

Ms 50cal: 100 pct dispersion zone = 8 mils

 

All data from German & US manuals.

 

Was discussed a long while back for the Il2 game:

http://forums.ubi.com/showthread.php/455156-IRL-data-to-support-better-Mk-108-accuracy-Forums

 

Thus another thing that needs looking into.

 

Even though I'm a horrible shot with the 109 I have seen the 30mm tear up plenty of planes when lined up correctly. Close range seems to be the key from sim experience + historical info. If you fire beyond 100m don't expect it to hit a fighter with too much consistency.

 

interesting bit directly from the link above:

 

...my conversation with Gottfried Dulias, a real 109G-14A/S pilot with whom I spoke. He used the 30mm (he called it 3cm) MK-108 to score his 5 victories, and this is what he told me;

 

He stated that the 3cm cannon was incredibly powerful, one time he hit a Spitifre that he bounced (with a single round) in the rear fuesalage and it tore the back of the plane off completely and it "flipped over itself through the air." He felt that it was a good air to air weapon, and not just useable against bombers. He did however state that you needed to be at close range when shooting, and he became very animated when acting as if he was shooting the MK-108. He stated that the entire plane shook and you were jolted around in the cockpit when firing, so that anything but a short burst was ineffective.

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30 mm shell stopping power

 

Hi !

I'm a little bit confused about the stopping power of 30 mm (and 20 mm as well) shell. In a mission I fired on a Mustang( and hit it) with no less than 38 shells! after that it flew like nothing happened(although it was pouring white and black smoke from engine, retaining speed and manoeuvrability of a untouched fighter). In WW II a study showed an average of 3 to 5 30 mm shell or a 20 20 mm shells needed to destroy a Mustang sized fighter.

 

 

I wonder that is any chart in game that can be altered in order to increase the power of fighter shells?-Like is "warheads" chart for missiles warheads found in DCS>DCS World>Config>Weapons

 

Thanks!

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ALL the hits were shot from 50 to 100 meters and ALL hit the Mustang! seen the explosions on the replay and were counted and displayed on the debriefing table at the end of the mission! Any way you look at it 38 shots hitting even the most non critical parts of a plane still do a lot of damage-but that guy was flying like at parade! and were at least 5 hits on the belly radiator...

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Was that on- or offline? Because online, bullets may not actually hit where it looks like, or conversely, may as well hit where it doesn't. You've got stuff like network latency, packet loss etc. happening - and those can just wash the whole thing down the tubes. Just the way it is, unfortunately :mad:

 

EDIT: Hmmm no, seems more like the DM is in fault or something actually. Stumped I'm afraid...

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I see some people mistake shooting skill with historical damage model.

I can kill the crap out of a p51 online and offline with my cannon.

 

Online there is no p51 pilot that can claim he shot me down more than I shot him down.

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There seems to be some conflation of shooting skill and gun power in this thread. The two are independent of each other. Range should matter less for the Mk 108 because the destructive energy of the 30mm shell is chemical and less so kinetic energy. Tony Williams used to have a great explanation of these difference at his website, but he seems to have taken it down because he finally published his book. http://users.telenet.be/Emmanuel.Gustin/volume1/index.html

 

The different experiences we have are the result of different expectations. Some see the target go down with 4 hits and conclude it is a powerful weapon. Others see the target go down with 4 hits and conclude it is weaker than it should be. I am in the latter camp.

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Understand that there is a mix of rounds in the Mk108, they each have sightly different characteristics as well, then add in the steadiness of the platform, speaking for myself, my nose can sway depending on the conditions, so sure, its probably pretty good sitting on the ground under ideal circumstances.

 

Also when considering hits, you have to ask yourself if they are on a part of the aircraft where the shell could pass all the way through, even on AI, penetration is modelled, try hitting a P-51 at close range with a Sabot round, many times the first round will pass thru the aircraft with little visible damage (known issue the visible damage model).

 

As for the logs afterwards, you might have seen me suggest they are far from accurate on many occasions, its a known issue. You cant test it yourself, look at the time of some of the hits and watch the replay back, many times the time of the hit dont mesh with the logs.

 

And ONE more time, I could care less what they discussed in IL2 or on their forums, it is irrelevant in this discussion. SO stop bringing old discussions to the table, instead, data, and tracks if you think you have an issue, otherwise its just hot air.

 

Bottomline, there are reported issues with the damage model, but you also have to look at your own gunnery skills, thats why I suggested that people look at the cannon against a ground vehicle so they could appreciate what the cannon is actually doing, instead of following the traces for their guns and thinking they are scoring all these cannon hits.

 

 

Sith the figures I posted represent the required accuracy of the actual weapons installation, in short it's the dispersion of the gun when installed on and operated from the aircraft.

 

Also your comment that a discussion relating the real life performance of the Mk108 as being irrelevant to this discussion I simply cannot understand. How is it irrelevant? Is it just because it was discussed on the IL2 forum? In that case every real life aspect of these aircraft is irrelevant as it's all been discussed many times before, and not only over on the IL2 forums but also on multiple other forums.

 

Finally I didn't bring up old discussions to the table, I simply provided a link to a thread containing worthwile data for the subject being discussed here.


Edited by Hummingbird
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