July 2014 Update #1

Now we see the selfish vocal majority. $40 will give me the Normandy map and Dora at $20 each. I already have the mustang too.. But hey... This is more manageable for ED. So no worries.... Give away ur extra keys to friends.

Selfish. Ya. All I'm gettin out of what I pledged is a map - that was originally - and should still be - free. Ya, good ol selfish me. Wanting a bit of what I was promised.

I have the mustang module. I didn't pledge for, nor planned to buy, the Dora. But wait!! I can TRADE my keys.

Ok.

WTT - my P51 key for your P47! K thx. Any takers? Oh. Wait. Nobody is going to be willing to do that, maybe because they already have the p51? 1 key is as good as 10?

Breaking things down the way they did is fine - they just chose to put the wrong planes first. Rewards should focus around the planes we pledged for. Not this bait and switch. Give away the key? Only people who I know that are into sims already have it. Those who don't ARE NOT interested in investing the time & money to get into flight sims.

I'm a bit dissapointed as a buyer of dcs products on day one. I have all of dcs's modules. I backed the KS to get all flyables. I can understand this is not financially viable and I accept it and dcs has my support with that. But I already have the p-51 obviously.I miss out on the spitfire my favourite aeroplane by not backing a further $5 I backed $75 so I get the mustang the 190 and the 109. I made a mistake and pre-purchased the 190 the day it was announced thinking it would be a long time before i would get my keys for it as a ww2 backer and i had a 70% voucher that i did not want to expire. So now i will have 2x fw190s 2x mustang, and no spitfire. Again i know the 190 is my fault and i cant blame anybody for that but I do feel it would be fairer to choose your flyables. I shall always support dcs and their products but I'm a little surprised.

Open a ticket, they might be able to refund your 190 pre-purchase... its an honest mistake.

:)

OK thanks sith.

It is worth a try.

So, let me get this straight. I backed $40 that gave me the election of 6 planes (5, cause I already have the P51D), and now I can only get ONE?

That's not OK at all, not only the amount of planes is ridiculous (1/6th of the original), but to be forced to the planes we get instead of choosing it's absurd.

I can understand that it isn't enough money for 5-6 planes, but changing that for 1 forced plane? That's not what I paid for.

If we could get 2 of our choosing, that would be ok. Not great, but ok.

So, let me get this straight. I backed $40 that gave me the election of 6 planes (5, cause I already have the P51D), and now I can only get ONE?

 

No, you get 2. The Mustang & Dora. Basically, ED just sold a BUNCH of Dora's for $40

Don't be fooled by the "free" map. The p51 key won't be much value anymore either since the community is going to be saturated in p51 keys.

Breaking things down the way they did is fine - they just chose to put the wrong planes first. Rewards should focus around the planes we pledged for. Not this bait and switch. Give away the key? Only people who I know that are into sims already have it. Those who don't ARE NOT interested in investing the time & money to get into flight sims.

Bait and switch implies ED knew this was going to happen.

Yes, it sucks that the KickStarter rewards got restructured but would you rather no game at all? RRG went under because they over promised and could not deliver. ED picked up the project and, weighing the options, decided to finish it and release it themselves. They even hired the RRG team (most of them) to continue the work on it.

ED could just as easily have said "well, RRG failed. We're picking up where they left off, but sadly we will no longer be honoring the kickstarter rewards." They could also just as easily have said "well, on the dev budget we have from the kickstarter, all WWII planes will be Flaming Cliffs fidelity flight models." So far, none of that has happened.

Happily, they are trying to honor as best and realistically as possible the kickstarter rewards that were originally promised. Per the June update, it has already cost $120,000 just for the AFM for the Bf109. Without modeling, texturing, programming, etc that goes into the module.

So let's take all six modules and just assume for a second that each one costs exactly that much. And let's assume, for the sake of argument, the rest of the module takes exactly zero more dollars to finish. So we're making a pretty unrealistic assumption here.

$120,000 * 6 modules = $720,000.

The kickstarter raised $158,000. I don't know what paypal raised, but I doubt it was an extra $600,000. And this is assuming there is no additional cost apart from AFM for each module.

I'm betting each module, at a conservative estimate runs around $200,000. So $1,200,000 for DCS WWII, just for the modules. Not counting dev time towards the Normandy map, additional engine enhancements, etc.

Honestly, I'm surprised Eagle Dynamics didn't decide to just cancel the project once RRG failed. I know it doesn't take the sting away as to why you can't swap the airframe of your choice with the P-51D, but I'm hoping it at least helps people reconcile why a restructuring of the kickstarter rewards has been done. And appreciate that ED is honoring them in any fashion at all.

And if it's any consolation, you essentially get a 50% off voucher for each module that you didn't end up getting in your reward. We all know that in an ideal world being able to pick your primary modules would be the preferred reward, but if that's not going to happen at least you get *something*.

I'm a bit dissapointed as a buyer of dcs products on day one. I have all of dcs's modules. I backed the KS to get all flyables. I can understand this is not financially viable and I accept it and dcs has my support with that. But I already have the p-51 obviously.I miss out on the spitfire my favourite aeroplane by not backing a further $5 I backed $75 so I get the mustang the 190 and the 109. I made a mistake and pre-purchased the 190 the day it was announced thinking it would be a long time before i would get my keys for it as a ww2 backer and i had a 70% voucher that i did not want to expire. So now i will have 2x fw190s 2x mustang, and no spitfire. Again i know the 190 is my fault and i cant blame anybody for that but I do feel it would be fairer to choose your flyables. I shall always support dcs and their products but I'm a little surprised.

Yep I did excatly the same. :( used my 70% voucher as well. So now I have 2 x mustangs and 2 x Dora's. And again none of the aircraft I actually pledged for.

I appreciate it's not excatly EDS fault, but I only pledged due to their link and connection to the project.

Although I'll be damned if I ever buy another thing Oleg and Luther are involved in. This was their one chance to redeem themselves after the COD diabolical, and guess what guys. You smegging blew it big style.

I'm just glad I reduced my pledge from $150 to $40

Mmmmm I wonder if ED would be nice, as I did purchase the Dora on day one, when I was of the understanding the licenses were for two different products. Then it all changed.

Cowboy10uk

Am I getting this right:

I backed 30 or 40 € am I getting mustang (just an idea of reward but more interesting that backer bonus) and because I backed I can buy other modules on 20€ price tag?

Kinda dissapointing that first tier plane is mustang but if I can buy them on 20€ tag Im fine with that. Cared really only about German planes anyway.

And now stop slacking ED and give us an opinion to throw money at you!

And if it's any consolation, you essentially get a 50% off voucher for each module that you didn't end up getting in your reward. We all know that in an ideal world being able to pick your primary modules would be the preferred reward, but if that's not going to happen at least you get *something*.

If you read back alittle bit I asked about this and they said this is not how it is going to work. We have to pay full price for any releases that we weren't given in the new structure. I would of been perfectly fine paying $20 for future releases of the planes we missed. They are stating that if you pledged for $40=$20 Mustang/$20 Dora/Free map value. $60-79 pledge=you get $20 Mustang/$20 Dora/$20 109K value. It works its way up threw the pledge tiers this way.

Brilliant, so for my $40 pledge, I essentially get a new map, and keys for 2 aircraft I already own. :(

How hard would it have been to just say each pledge gets x aircraft and allow us to choose in our backer section.

Very very unhappy.

I've fired off a ticket in relation to having a Dora already pre ordered, you never know they may refund it but honestly I'm not holding my breath.

Cowboy10uk

Thanks Wags and SiThSpAwN for the update. :thumbup: And for the hard work in the forums.

the new system look more credible now.

Point?

You keep saying that ED are trying to save this mess. My point is ED, were are part of this mess from the start, so stop trying to make it sound like they were an innocent bystander that just got pulled into this thing.

ED saw what the Kickstarter post said the same day the rest of us did. Heck they linked to it and promoted it.

The project is "financially unattainable" on July 7 2014, but it wasn't in October of 2013?

Perhaps that could be discussed? How could it take until now to figure that out?

hmmmm....

Although at my level of pledge at $100, I 'm only losing the 262, so this change doesn't really affect me, I have to admit that I see the point raised by others.

There are approximately 1400 backers at the 1$-40$ range, 900 of them being at 40$. That's about half of all backers. Assuming that a significant proportion of them (40$) already own the P51, the new rewards give them in addition just the Dora. So these guys are essentially stuck with getting 1 additional aircraft for roughly the same price they would buy it in retail, whereas they were promised in KS to get full access to all flyables.

That defeats the whole purpose of being a backer in my opinion. These guys are already customers of ED, bought the mustang, and also supported another project in which ED were initially involved in, and are now in charge of. They are returning customers and now they are left with no choice of a flyable aircraft, whereas they could have used their 40$ to buy the module they wanted when it got released.

If not allowing a choice of which module to get is a result of ED not having time to organise a matrix reward system, then it's understandable, but in any way, i think that it will make a lot of people unhappy. On the other hand, i think that almost everyone would be satisfied with a 20$ per aircraft price+choosing which aircraft to get depending on the pledge level.

okay.. correct me if i'm wrong here

kickstarter ------ isn't that the thing that is inherently "risky"?

and you KNOW going into it that any given project could simply fail, outright??

again, CORRECT ME IF I"M WRONG HERE BUT............ it looks like the project in one way or another.. FAILED

where am i going wrong here??

On the other hand, i think that almost everyone would be satisfied with a 20$ per aircraft price+choosing which aircraft to get depending on the pledge level.

This, the only reason I'm not happy is because ED decided what aircraft I get. I already own one and am being forced another that I have no interest in.

For some reason people here think that makes me irrational.

I completely understand EDs difficult choice but I fail to understand why they couldn't simply say for the 40-$59 dollar pledge level you get the map and your choice of two air frames.

Yeah,The new KS Rewards tier probably should of been hashed out before the Dora pre-order was launched

okay.. correct me if i'm wrong here

kickstarter ------ isn't that the thing that is inherently "risky"?

and you KNOW going into it that any given project could simply fail, outright??

 

again, CORRECT ME IF I"M WRONG HERE BUT............ it looks like the project in one way or another.. FAILED

where am i going wrong here??

You're not wrong. The project did fail. RRG has gone.

ED have simply picked up the pieces and are salvaging it. It's a shame people don't understand that or won't accept that ED could simply have said "It's RRG's project, not ours. Tough luck". Quite frankly, I'm surprised they didn't.

Wait a second.

On ED forum in http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=112433

there is an anouncement that RRG, ED, and The fighter Collection are starting a kickstarter campaign called "DCS WWII: Europ 1944"

MOSCOW, Russia – September 1, 2013 - Legendary flight simulation designers Ilya Shevchenko, Igor Tishin, and Matt Wagner are excited to announce an upcoming Kickstarter campaign...

On the Kickstarter page of this project it says the following:

Funded! This project was successfully funded on October 5, 2013.

A few weeks ago the creator was fired, and ED assumed control of the project and even hired some of the team from RRG and ED has confirmed that the project will be completed and shipped, albeit with a new delivery schedule.

On the Kickstarter website it also says:

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill.

This is what creators see before they launch

This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

Has ED really taken into account that they may be liable to legal recourse from Kickstarter (and probably Amazon) if they don't fullfil their promises?

I would probably define "promises" as delivering the value tagged assets (the additional DCS Level Airplane Modules) to those backers that they were promised to.

Meaning that the 40 dollar and above backers should receive all the airplanes.

Myself I am a backer invested with more then 100 dollars so it really doesn't bother me, but many of the people in my community went in at 40 dollars expecting to receive the whole planeset including the stretch goals. I hope ED has taken this into account.

okay.. correct me if i'm wrong here

 

kickstarter ------ isn't that the thing that is inherently "risky"?

 

and you KNOW going into it that any given project could simply fail, outright??

 

 

again, CORRECT ME IF I"M WRONG HERE BUT............ it looks like the project in one way or another.. FAILED

 

where am i going wrong here??

True they are risky, however it clearly states here in the kickstarter FAQ that.

Is a creator legally obligated to fulfill the promises of their project?

Yes. Kickstarter's Terms of Use require creators to fulfill all rewards of their project or refund any backer whose reward they do not or cannot fulfill. (This is what creators see before they launch.) This information can serve as a basis for legal recourse if a creator doesn't fulfill their promises. We hope that backers will consider using this provision only in cases where they feel that a creator has not made a good faith effort to complete the project and fulfill.

Now technically, Luther has certainly failed to fulfill all rewards of their projects. So technically according to the terms and conditions, he should refund us.

Now ED have taken over the project but are still not fulfilling the rewards promised, so it will be interesting to see where they stand in the legality of these terms and conditions. I do appreciate they are at least attempting to provide something, although as I've already stated 2 licenses for aircraft I already own, are as much use as a chocolate fire guard.

Cowboy10uk

I think now would be a very opportune time to release edge/hornet. LOL

Snip

Replying on my phone so this may not be well formatted & I'll be cutting my response down quite a bit.

Your right, it does imply they knew it would happen - however I'm starting to feel perhaps they knew more than we give them credit. Ok. I'm just bein cynical, maybe...

When this all started, RRG claimed they could afford to do it with or without the kickstarter success. This was simply the diff of a better time frame. They also stated they had talks with ED on how they were going to go about accomplishing it and had ED's approval. We don't know WHY this all happened & it's been nothing but speculation. Wags stated they wouldn't go into details on why, just that "they absorbed most RRG employees and are pickin up the project". Something I believe a lot are overlooking is that ED also absorbed the work done & whatever funds they had (kickstarter & otherwise).

You mentioned the cost of 6 modules but there's only 4. Maybe 3, assuming the 109 is virtually done, save for textures. The large amount of work done to the map and other planes. I won't argue it's still going to cost money for them to complete, but it's also not that they're picking up a project which had zero accomplished.

Your also correct in that they could have simply scrapped it. Tho they would have to face the brunt of angry customers who backed with confidence that ED was approving of it all. Wrong or right.

I think a lot of people who are siding with the "backers are lucky to get anything & ED is losing by honoring the project" are assuming the only people who will be interested in DCS:WWII are the backers & there won't be modules sold otherwise. I think this is wrong. There were a lot who were interested but had no faith on RRG & were going to wait til release... Maybe I'm wrong tho & the only people who will (or, would had) buy WWII modules are those of us who backed.

Lastly, there is no discount for the planes we don't get for our pledges. That would, to a small extent, would ease the blow. Unfortunately some people misunderstood Wags original post & the misinformation keeps getting repeated.

Sith - to the map, I'm not valuing it as "nothing" in terms of we don't need/want it. I'm placing a "value" in terms of cost & out pledge. It was supposed to be "free" like DCS World, Georgia. It should still be free. If they turned around & told me I had to buy it, I wouldn't. I also wouldn't buy anything further.. Granted, I felt they were nuts saying "all planes would be free" when they were deciding how to sell things. You'll remember there was much talk about voting for 1 free plane w Normandy map. I'm also slightly confused to the WWII-dcs:world debacle as I've always been under the impression it would be maps & modules within DCS:World & those who didn't have WWII planes would still be flying w us in their mustangs & Dora's. Infact when I considered upping my pledge for alpha access I thought about what to do with my Extra Mustang key... Ultimately I decided not to increase my pledge.