AIM-9 uncage/cage and EEGS gun funnel

I took advantage of sale to get FC3 and Mig21. Both are great.

However F15C seems to be missing some key functions from real one, that should be in FC3.

First is AIM-9 cage/uncage function to let the seeker wonder, without radar queing.

Second is lack of EEGS funnel gunsight in Close ACM mode when radar is silent.

A-10C AA mode has uncage function for AIM-9M, as well as gun funnel.

I could not find those two submodes in F-15C options.

Also F-15C does have a AirGround mode for CCIP and strafe. FC3 F15C does not.

You're right these are missing.

With AIM-9 in longitudinal mode (6) you can press 6 again to increase the area where the seeker can go (it still stays in middle tho until it find something). I haven't tested this mode too much so I don't know the details of its function.

The gun funnel... i really don't see a reason to use it. When you're in a perfect firing position, I don't see a reason to fire without radar lock. Spooking the bandit doesn't matter, since if your aim is true (and it is more true with radar lock really), the bandit will be in pieces by the time it would react to your attack.

A ground strafing gun pipper would be nice I admit, however the F-15C can be a relatively effective SEAD platform as it is, even without CCIP calculation :D

You're right these are missing.

 

With AIM-9 in longitudinal mode (6) you can press 6 again to increase the area where the seeker can go (it still stays in middle tho until it find something). I haven't tested this mode too much so I don't know the details of its function.

 

The gun funnel... i really don't see a reason to use it. When you're in a perfect firing position, I don't see a reason to fire without radar lock. Spooking the bandit doesn't matter, since if your aim is true (and it is more true with radar lock really), the bandit will be in pieces by the time it would react to your attack.

 

A ground strafing gun pipper would be nice I admit, however the F-15C can be a relatively effective SEAD platform as it is, even without CCIP calculation :D

Ground strafing gun pipper is there if you add the Air-To-Ground mode in your controls. :)

The FC3 F-15 lacks alot of things- Fully simulated F-15 needs to become a thing ;D

Where did you see that the F-15 has a funnel or EEGS?

Second is lack of EEGS funnel gunsight in Close ACM mode when radar is silent.

God forbid we get a funnel, most useless function ever.

Previous sims of F-15E had it, and videos on YT show it in F-15C. There are three types of gunsights on all American fighters of 4 , and 4.5. Pipper for radar guided shoot que, Lead Computing Optical Sight (the snake), and EEGS gun funnel.

I like EEGS funnel. You get pretty good aiming, without having any kind of sensor on.

I wonder where those YT movies are, given that no funnel was ever implemented in the F-15C in RL.

Previous sims of F-15E had it, and videos on YT show it in F-15C. There are three types of gunsights on all American fighters of 4 , and 4.5. Pipper for radar guided shoot que, Lead Computing Optical Sight (the snake), and EEGS gun funnel.

Hello again,

Me, the avionics enthusiast, decided to give some attention to the F-15 and not just the russian fighters.

However got somewhat disappointed to see that the AIM-9 seeker-head behavior seems to be missing some features:

- there is no real "uncage" feature ;

- there is only a bigger target acquisition area (when pressing key "6" again) ;

- without Radar-Slave mode, the seeker only follows the target in a very small area in the HUD.

When uncaging the AIM-9, shouldn't the seeker-head be able to follow the heat source (target) in a much bigger area within its gimbal limits (well outside the HUD) ?

Previous sims of F-15E had it, and videos on YT show it in F-15C. There are three types of gunsights on all American fighters of 4 , and 4.5. Pipper for radar guided shoot que, Lead Computing Optical Sight (the snake), and EEGS gun funnel.

No it doesn't.

Thanks for playing, though.

No it doesn't.

 

Thanks for playing, though.

he said F-15E could be the issue, yes FC3 is the arcade of dcs modules.

he said F-15E could be the issue, yes FC3 is the arcade of dcs modules.

Previous sims of F-15E had it, and videos on YT show it in F-15C. There are three types of gunsights on all American fighters of 4 , and 4.5. Pipper for radar guided shoot que, Lead Computing Optical Sight (the snake), and EEGS gun funnel.

"...and videos of YT show it in F-15C."

Thanks for playing.

Hell, is hard to find F-15 HUD combat video that are not all distorted and hard to see. I would love links to any of them.

OZ5N58z9UUM

Here one of the pilots talks about it.

https://youtu.be/_99lJHWwyOo?t=19m48s

It would be nice to have AIM-9 uncage to make sure it is tracking the intended target

Hello again,

 

Me, the avionics enthusiast, decided to give some attention to the F-15 and not just the russian fighters.

 

However got somewhat disappointed to see that the AIM-9 seeker-head behavior seems to be missing some features:

 

- there is no real "uncage" feature ;

- there is only a bigger target acquisition area (when pressing key "6" again) ;

- without Radar-Slave mode, the seeker only follows the target in a very small area in the HUD.

 

When uncaging the AIM-9, shouldn't the seeker-head be able to follow the heat source (target) in a much bigger area within its gimbal limits (well outside the HUD) ?

What's your opinion on this guys?

Is my take on this subject correct, is some fix foreseen ?

I wouldn't expect any fixes for FC3 systems (ie. old code).

I wouldn't expect any fixes for FC3 systems (ie. old code).

I'm still somewhat noob on all this, but you're saying that:

Although for instance, the MiG-29 got a new cockpit enhancements few time ago and will get the Professional Flight Model, all these features are somewhat simpler to implement than an avionics update for the F-15 ?

If i'm not mistaken the F-15C was done by Belsimtek, at least the manuals have there name on them. and there more focuesed on new modules with full functioning avionics. as i said before FC3 is the arcade of DCS tho yes we all hope for new 33/29 FM's. but who is actually doing them?

FC3 has no resemblance to arcade whatsoever. It's simple systems model, period. If you want arcade, there's HAWX - if you cannot tell the difference, divest yourself of your bias.

Hint: There used to be a working 'easy avionics' mode which actually turned all jet systems into arcadish versions.

If i'm not mistaken the F-15C was done by Belsimtek, at least the manuals have there name on them. and there more focuesed on new modules with full functioning avionics. as i said before FC3 is the arcade of DCS tho yes we all hope for new 33/29 FM's. but who is actually doing them?

The developers who gave the MiG-29 the new cockpit features I guess ?

FC3 has no resemblance to arcade whatsoever. It's simple systems model, period. If you want arcade, there's HAWX - if you cannot tell the difference, divest yourself of your bias.

 

Hint: There used to be a working 'easy avionics' mode which actually turned all jet systems into arcadish versions.

True.

Even Strike Fighters 2 is not considered "arcade" but: "Light Sim".

But is it so difficult to update the F-15 avionics regarding the AIM-9, keeping in mind all other things done so far ?

FC3 has no resemblance to arcade whatsoever. It's simple systems model, period. If you want arcade, there's HAWX - if you cannot tell the difference, divest yourself of your bias.

 

Hint: There used to be a working 'easy avionics' mode which actually turned all jet systems into arcadish versions.

"the arcade of DCS" obviously you didnt understand me but that seems to happen often. the fact the simplified systems compared to other modules is where this statement comes from it's not HAWX arcade but it is ARCADE compared to the fidelity of other modules.

"the arcade of DCS" obviously you didnt understand me but that seems to happen often. the fact the simplified systems compared to other modules is where this statement comes from it's not HAWX arcade but it is ARCADE compared to the fidelity of other modules.

No worries, I understood it well.

The issue is, I'm an avionics appraiser, and even for the FC3 simplicity level, the current F-15's AIM-9 avionics / procedures, are below standard:

A true seeker uncage feature / behavior is missing, those who played Falcon BMS, know of what kind of AIM-9 seeker features reality I'm talking about.

Already talked on this very same subject (speculated) here in the forum on the upcoming Leatherneck F-14, and the AIM-9 employment procedures / modes.

The Aerosoft F-14X for instance got short on my spectations:

- only the good old "point and shoot universal arcadish feature" for the AIM-9 Sidewinder, when on the other hand they had great efforts to realisticaly feature the AIM-7 and AIM-54 modes / procedures.

No worries, I understood it well.

 

A true seeker uncage feature / behavior is missing, those who played Falcon BMS, know of what kind of AIM-9 seeker features reality I'm talking about.

 

Already talked on this very same subject (speculated) here in the forum on the upcoming Leatherneck F-14, and the AIM-9 employment procedures / modes.

This is incorrect. No lock functionality (commonly known as "uncage", but is a misnomer across other types) is different depending on the specific airframe, because the seeker is still being directed to function within a specific region for pilot reference; what that reference is remains based on the FCS logic of the aircraft in question:

The F-15's no-lock pre-acquisition seek function in DCS is basically correct, as it hunts in the depressed FoV circle. Uncage with a track removes this circle, showing seeker acquisition. Uncage without a track defaults back to the FoV circle.

The F-14's no-lock seek pre-acquisition function (designated as boresight) places the weapon on the ADL (armament datum line), cycling that line up and down.

The F-16's no-lock uncage follows a specific pattern that is different from both of the above aircraft; it is not the default of the weapon itself.

"Uncage" merely decouples the seeker from the radar. If you are forced to decouple (due to no lock, or are "proofing" the shot to confirm valid seeker track), the seeker is going to go where the FCS tells it, or fixate on what it already has acquisition of. That the switch is called "uncage" doesn't mean that it is a specific function of the missile- it's still being told to do something, and do it in a fashion that permits the pilot to know where it is.

This is incorrect. No lock functionality (commonly known as "uncage", but is a misnomer across other types) is different depending on the specific airframe, because the seeker is still being directed to function within a specific region for pilot reference; what that reference is remains based on the FCS logic of the aircraft in question:

 

The F-15's no-lock pre-acquisition seek function in DCS is basically correct, as it hunts in the depressed FoV circle. Uncage with a track removes this circle, showing seeker acquisition. Uncage without a track defaults back to the FoV circle.

 

The F-14's no-lock seek pre-acquisition function (designated as boresight) places the weapon on the ADL (armament datum line), cycling that line up and down.

 

The F-16's no-lock uncage follows a specific pattern that is different from both of the above aircraft; it is not the default of the weapon itself.

 

"Uncage" merely decouples the seeker from the radar. If you are forced to decouple (due to no lock, or are "proofing" the shot to confirm valid seeker track), the seeker is going to go where the FCS tells it, or fixate on what it already has acquisition of. That the switch is called "uncage" doesn't mean that it is a specific function of the missile- it's still being told to do something, and do it in a fashion that permits the pilot to know where it is.

Lunaticfringe,

Frequently I find hard to meet someone who know this stuff with the level of detail you do, thank you for your attention.

However I understood the most part of your explanations, but not all, so basically you're saying that in the F-15:

Is it normal that without Radar-Slave mode, the seeker only follows (track) the target in a very small area in the HUD ?

When uncaging the AIM-9, shouldn't the seeker-head be able to follow the heat source (target) in a much bigger area within its gimbal limits (well outside the HUD) ?

Is it normal that without Radar-Slave mode, the seeker only follows (track) the target in a very small area in the HUD ?

Yes, if you do not press UNCAGE

When uncaging the AIM-9, shouldn't the seeker-head be able to follow the heat source (target) in a much bigger area within its gimbal limits (well outside the HUD) ?

Correct.

There is no 'UNCAGE' functionality in the FC3 F-15C, so what you are seeing is correct (if my interpretation of the -34 is correct) behavior if you do not press the 'UNCAGE' button.

I would not expect this to be added in FC3.