SEAD missiles .

I went with what the ED testers have told me.

It's not modeled.

I take that stupid paperweight off, and replace it with extra AA missiles instead.

I don't have too much information about the jammer types, but it is supposed to jam different types of SAMS, the less modern and more modern types, higher and lower, etc and so forth.

IRL it actually should be able to handle multiple different SAM systems at the same time, etc and so forth, but none of this is applicable to DCS.

The way the AI work currently in DCS is FUBAR, and this has been also under fire, and something to be worked on in the new engine. This ties in to how the SAMs work and how they behave.

In anycase, currently there is no good reason to have ECM unless you want to jam air targets, in which case, go right on ahead. But having that thing on will hurt you more than not having it at all.

There is no delay between spotting you, locking you up and firing on you with ECM on with both the A-10C and the SU-25T with and without jammer pods.

That right there is the silver lining, and what we are talking about here.

We are not talking about many planes flying en masse, and what the SAMs behaviour is like with many targets.

We are talking about what it should do for you, even as a single unit against a SAM, and yes, I know about the SAMs burning through your ECM just as an aircraft can burn through ECM of a hostile aircraft.

But with absolutely 0 change in any behavior UP TO THE LAUNCH of a SAM on you, it is not effective at all and defeats it's purpose.

What happens AFTER the launch is a bit of a mystery and is too hard to test to tell you conclusively, but from an article on a guy who worked for Ratheon on the jammer pods what he COULD say is that after the missile is launched the jammer changes to a DEFENSIVE mode, while before launch it jams it offensively (In this mode the jammers are supposed to block the whole range band for the SAM and LOWER THE EFFECTIVE RANGE ON THE SAM, however the SAM WILL burn through at some distance from target and engage<- this does not happen in DCS in either the A-10 nor the SU-25T).

It is supposed to cause "An acceptable miss range" by altering the missile flight dynamics on the inbound missile. It will still come after you and track you (the jammer will not break lock but it can on some systems), but it should provide enough jamming (At least for the older SAM systems that we deal with in DCS) to make it miss provided you use chaff and acceptable maneuvering. Beyond that, he couldn't say more except that the jammer pod for the A-10 has been extremely successful (not exactly what we are seeing in DCS, not that I blame them, this stuff is super secret).

So while I'l take your word on what happens after the missile is already airborne Expert, what happens before launch is not modeled, and this is where the problem lies in.

There is no delay between spotting you, locking you up and firing on you with ECM on with both the A-10C and the SU-25T with and without jammer pods.

I notice the missile launch is very far inside range limits, could it be AI think every plane use ECM, even if it's not active?

I don't think so. I tested it out with the SAM units on easy and expert and they don't seem to differ in the range they fire at. So they will shoot at you well in their range circle to "try" and keep you in their NEZ (No Escape Zone), except the long range SAMs that will fire at you rather far far away. The higher you are with those long range SAMs, they will shoot at you even further away. So far away in fact that your MWS won't even pick up the launch. It's very effective too. You are just flying along at 15K or higher, and all of the sudden just BOOM! You implode.

I notice the missile launch is very far inside range limits, could it be AI think every plane use ECM, even if it's not active?

I believe this is done on purpose, because up to a certain DCSW version SAMS used to fire on you once they had a lock, which made evading them very easy. Now they wait and fire only when you are well within the engagement envelope.

eXPeRT Can you help me recreate ARM explosions in singleplayer? I have created a mission with a Hawk launcher, a PAR and HPR radar. With or without other aircraft, in different combinations of radars I always seem to hit with no missiles exploding whatsoever. I also made sure that I am not the primary target and still managed to hit the radars - what am I doing wrong?

So there you have it.

I believe this is done on purpose, because up to a certain DCSW version SAMS used to fire on you once they had a lock, which made evading them very easy. Now they wait and fire only when you are well within the engagement envelope.

 

eXPeRT Can you help me recreate ARM explosions in singleplayer? I have created a mission with a Hawk launcher, a PAR and HPR radar. With or without other aircraft, in different combinations of radars I always seem to hit with no missiles exploding whatsoever. I also made sure that I am not the primary target and still managed to hit the radars - what am I doing wrong?

As Gloom explanation that means exploding ARM's is still a bug for me and thank you "eXPeRT" for giving us your feedback's which I agree 90% except that SR ( Search Radar ) are not track-able with ARM's with or without tracking. Then why they are working (not exploding) in the single player with multiple targets inside the SR range ? for me this still a bug that to be addressed.

Also KH-58U guidance is Inertial with passive radar seeker.... So even with a Sam Radar tracking you or not the Anti-Radar missile's Radar will go to the last emiting position of the SAM's RADAR TR or SR whatever it is because these missiles not only designed to destroy Sams but also Radar Installations.

Its a bug and if some say it is not then please give us HARD proof that these missiles will lock on to specific radars not only SR's (Search Radars).

Lock on - FC1, FC2 was the perfect simulation of these missiles. Even when you see earlier version of DCSW there was no bug like this. Since I think I might be wrong from ver. 1.2.4 or 1.2.3 this bug started.

Network Latency !

So you believe that some things were done on purpose to make the SEAD more realistic, while not understanding the cause for the other things, assuming it is a bug..

 

I am completely convinced that it is not.

I have done countless hours of MP flying on the main servers for months since DCS/FC3 release, and the SEAD is more realistic than ever.

 

A Search Radar paints you only every so often, as it rotates.

From one "ping", with these older anti-radar systems, it's impossible to tell the exact location of the incoming radar source.

 

The use of Phantasmagoria pod with these MPUs and 58s is simplified here.

But it has greatly been improved.

In FC1/2, it was impossible to override the anti-radar missiles beyond their max range showing on the HUD, now it's possible, and they hit as long as they can reach the target ballistically.

And these missiles now work against Shilka/Vulcan AAA, which they didnt before.

 

The difference between the single player and multiplayer is that there are latencies involved, and so if a SAM paints you every 2 secs exactly, which is enough for an MPU to establish a track, in multiplayer, it will be over 2 secs, which is just enough for the missile to lose track and explode! But if you are the host, you have 0ms, and so you don't have this issue.

 

MPU and 58 fly straight for a couple secs, before proceeding on target.

If no target, or target is lost in this time, it will auto-destruct itself.

This is realistic for these older ARMs. If it did have the track already, it will go to the last known position, but if it never established it, it cant.

A simple timing adjustment could resolve this..

 

Keep in mind that the distance doesn't matter for something that's rotating every so often, it's always painting you so often.

 

All the rules of something painting or locking you still apply.

A TOR or Roland will auto-explode your missile if they arent tracking you, for example. Or if OSA is moving and not stationary. They have SR and TR combined and use them selectively. Each SAM has it's parameters and behavior resulting in designing the way to approach it and destroy.

 

So, there are 2 reasons for auto-destruction of ARMs:

1. Over 2 secs (always in MP) rotating radar cycles.

2. The SAM is not targeting you specifically or is moving, so the ARM cannot sustain a lock.

 

This is how it is in DCS.

Learning all the behaviors, for me, insured that not a single one of my ARMs is wasted. And so I truly enjoy SEAD and believe it's realistic in DCS and this is not a bug, at the most, it's the result of network latency.

 

Although, once you get the BUK TRs/Launchers, for example, the SRs are useless. It is not impossible to kill a BUK or Hawk SR in MP, but it's not reliable, and so focus on TRs instead.

 

Also, the TORs, Rolands, Tunguskas and other SAMs attempting to intercept incoming ARMs, and some only the larger 58s and not the MPUs, is very realistic and makes SEAD a challenge.

 

Anyway, this is obviously by design, and the multiplayer just makes it more difficult, but once you learned all the tricks, it's a blast to SEAD in MP, while watching others complaining.

 

In DCS, unlike FC1/2, SEAD requires skills and is not for an average user.

In real life, you should not be able to easily SEAD left and right from far.

So, this is a great simulation of SEAD, the best of any simulator I've seen.

OK ! then its network latency as you said. Having said that then its a bug and ED should resolved it by adjusting the timing of the radar-cycle especially in the Multiplayer mode. And adding to another thing... yes Seading is for more fun realistic then fc1 and 2 but still that network latency thing that you mentioned is to be fixed which is a BUG.

Anyway, got to hand to you with your insight on Seading... Amazing ! Bravo !

So, there are 2 reasons for auto-destruction of ARMs:

1. Over 2 secs (always in MP) rotating radar cycles.

Lets hope this bug gets a fix then :)

I know what you are saying, but IMO this isn't a good compromise. The AI should be looked into instead of a mismatch between your Launch Auth, Fantas/HUD feedback and RWR.

I know DEAD is to easy, SEAD is not really simulated, but just a strange way to detonate your missiles when you've got all your ducks in a row is not the best answer. :/

See this thread is quite a long one, but have no time for it to read all...

For me, the most annoying thing is that missiles just explode few secs after leaving a launch rail under the su-25t wing. No matter if alt is 2 or 8 km (barometric). It is quite random and no matter what U aim at. Patriot, buk, hawk, anything long-range, 'radar capable'. Claiming the radar emiter turns off itself? So what? the missiles 'remember' the signal location and should fly in that 'spot'... Yes, they'll miss if the 'emiter' moves from initial location. Are ground radar systems equipped in any kind of jammers? No idea about it, but if so - how ELINT finds them? Rotary search antenna case - very very true and realistic case!

Anyway, the exploding missile make SEAD flight huge piece of .......!

The "LA" override issue? Don't see any issue in that, just enable it and U're able to launch the missile earlier, into a "spot" pointed by ELINT. If it gets shot down before reaching the target? Well, good for those who shot it. Out of range? Issue only for ppl who don't understand ballistics... That class of missiles can fly "without fuel" (someone said), well over 100km or 200km... See KH-58 U variant, shot from 10km or 15km altitude or anti aircraft S200 Wega starting from ground ;D

@madyogi

It's not random.

And if you are not willing to read the thread or at least the important findings on the ways to prevent the ARMs from self-exploding, then don't expect anyone to read your post. The solution is in this SEAD thread.

If it is here, than lets cut the c...p and delete everything, leaving just the solution? Wouldn't it just save me and you and many others readiing typing reading and typing?

So, about halfway through the thread, it was claimed that the issue of-25MPUs overshooting their targets and not missing was fixed, and it hasn't been mentioned since.

However, yesterday I was flying one of the missions in the SU-25T campaign, and tried to use 25MPUs against SPAAA Gepards. The missiles sailed over the top of the targets and impacted ~10 meters behind them.

Is the issue not actually fixed, or has it been un-fixed recently? Or is there something else I need to do in order to get them to work? I saw mention of missions needing to be updated; has the SU-25T campaign not been updated to fix the missiles?

Thanks for any information...

Edit: Just tried it out with the mission editor. 4x -25MPUs, one at each of 2 Shilkas and 2 Gepards.

The MPUs all exploded directly over the targets, but weren't enough to get a kill shot, except for one Shilka. So I guess, against these kinds of targets, I'm better off with -25MLs on those hardpoints and just using the ELINT to find the things.

I also shot a couple of -58Us against one of the remaining Gepards. One of them overshot by quite a bit, the other exploded right over the target. Six ARM missiles to take out two SPAAAs and damage two others seems a bit...meh.

It was fixed by them adding a bigger proximity fuse to the missile. I'm kinda shocked the Gepard has a big enough of a radar signature that the ARMs are able to track it. Its still a AAA though so you should be able to take it out easily with vikhers, Kh-25ML, or any missile or even bombs really.

Missions don't need to be updated for changes to missile behavior and stuff like that. Its only recommended that they be re-saved due to mission editor changes from version to version.

 

Anyway, SEAD is an art, but all ground radars are destroyable with ARMs, except for EWR.

Really, sounds kinda wierd to me. You have missiles designed to take out radars, but for whatever reason they can't take out EWR????

How come?, got me curious.

eXPeRT I read the whole thread, but still do not understand what to do to prevent ARMs from exploding. Only shoot them at targets which are filtered out by RShift R, have a description below them (like R for Roland) and are TR radars? In some cases it helps to get closer before firing even if the Lock Authorized message is already visible.

And another thing - how do I use the Override function with ARMs? It works great with laser guided weapons, but with ARMs or, come to think of it, with the Kh29T, it fails.

It has nothing to do with rotation, and everything to do with wavelength and antenna size.

The ARM's tiny antennae cannot get useful angular resolution against long wavelength radars.

In order of an ARM to destroy a radar, it has to home in on its exact location and with a slowly rotating EWR is probably just impossible to do so with these old ARMs.

An AGM-88 HARM may be much smarter and has actual logic and doesn't rely on physics alone.

Really, sounds kinda wierd to me. You have missiles designed to take out radars, but for whatever reason they can't take out EWR????

 

How come?, got me curious.

EWR radars use long length waves which normally need of big antennas to be detected - which doesn't fit in a small missile head.

Not all ESM systems are able to detect long-range EWR radars, mainly for this reason.

Regards!

P.S -> ARgh, snipped by GGTharos!

Thanks for the reply.

Update your DCS.

DCS is updated. I'm using the Steam version, and it was auto-updated to the newest version some time ago. That information not being in my post was my fault--I'd written the post first on my phone and included it, then my phone's battery died and I forgot to re-include the information when I re-wrote it.

But yeah, DCS is updated to the latest version.

Both 25MPU and 58U have excellent proximity fuses and always damage till explode and destroy the radar SAMs, all of them, unless intercepted. They dont overshoot but explode on top of or into the unit attacked.

Please actually read my post. I get that you're very knowledgeable about the game, but it's not helpful when you post your (copy/pasted?) reply that misses a couple points of my post.

First off, I was attacking AAA, not SAMs:

...tried to use 25MPUs against SPAAA Gepards...

Second off, yes, at least when used against Gepards the missiles can still overshoot.

The missiles sailed over the top of the targets and impacted ~10 meters behind them.

Saying that the missiles "never overshoot" is a little silly when I just saw them overshoot during the campaign two days ago, and also saw a -58U overshoot while testing last night when I posted the edit.

Do you need to see a track of the missile overshooting to prove that yes, it still happens?

Are these missiles not intended for use against the radar-based AAA? If that's the case, great, but it would be nice if that information were documented somewhere obvious. The obvious conclusion for someone who's not already intimately familiar with the mechanics is "they have a radar, so I can shoot them with ARMs."

It has nothing to do with rotation, and everything to do with wavelength and antenna size.

 

The ARM's tiny antennae cannot get useful angular resolution against long wavelength radars.

be that as in may in MP you cannot destroy a BUK search radar (last time i and several other people tried) with an ARM, but you can in SP.

Do you have a track of this?

you are going to have to wait for the MP track, till some time tomorrow, unfortunately.

I already explained the difference of ARMs behavior in single and multiplayer.

But basically, a low frequency rotating radar, with the latency involved makes the first 2 secs where the ARM is just coming off the rail and about to go for the targeted radar, become over the 2 secs (2secs + latency), and so the ARM is unable to "grab" the signal and explodes.

that makes no sense, and a glitch is a glitch.

 

There's more to it, however. But there's a sure way to attack SAM sites that their SR's become useless. Just kill the TRs once they lock you, filter the SR's out with RShift R and launch on remaining TRs.

 

Shift R doesnt work well it keeps it filtered until the next time you get pinged by the radar then it just switches back to its default mode, when in SEAD mode.

There are all kinds of radar sizes and wavelengths.

Just like GGTharos said, a small ARM cannot track a large radar.

 

This is a realistic simulator and so you can't expect to hit every radar with every ARM.

Right, I get that now--I was just giving my uninformed thought process that led to the attempt.

I swear, the Steam version must be different or something, I killed 4 Gepards with 4 MPUs in an easy test. The missiles fly over the targets' radar and blow up with proximity fuse. Gepards have good armor, but they do light up and blow up, if not instantly.

In my test, the missiles seemed to blow up as expected over the top of the Gepard, but left it with 10-50% health remaining (according to the map).

I'll give it another try, both in the Steam version and the standalone version, and will post tracks if I'm still having trouble.

Using Kh-58U vs Gepard or Shilka is an overkill, and it's probably going to overshoot, as it's still on its accelerating stage, going very fast, if fired up close.

 

In fact, try to avoid using ARMs vs anything that doesn't put you in great danger, and use Shkval after locking it with the pod first, and use a laser missile on them.

Yeah, this is what I'll be doing in the future. ELINT to find the things, Vikhr or -25ML for the kill.

Thanks for he help.

The DCS documentation should be updated with all this important information on all the changes done to the SEAD missiles.

Politeness

While I have a few MP tracks and screenshots daily to prove otherwise.

SEAD works at it should.

 

 

 

The glitch is your brain unwilling to adapt to the new rules of SEAD.

You just want an easy SEAD like back in FC1/2.

Sorry buddy, that's not going to happen. LEARN or FAIL.

There's always HAWX where all missiles hit..

 

 

 

 

Works great! It also gives you an idea how often the radars are painting.

A well trained pilot can tell by the sounds and visually from RWR Beryoza the number of radars and their origin. And with RShift R you can simply filter them away to let you see the ones you need to launch on.

 

Then just use your brain, and repeat.

 

Seriously, your unwillingness to adapt to the new, improved and more realistic than ever SEAD is laughable.

:doh:

Expert, please refrain from talking down to people, it's not very endearing. Thank you.