Jump to content

[EVALUATING] ASP for A-2-A gun use incorrect / Radar


Shark-Bait

Recommended Posts

ephimg-20188850.gif

 

Side lobes are electro-magnetic waves that are emitting into another direction than the main part of the antenna it self.

 

 

The first thing that comes to mind (well, it came to mind about a month ago), rather than re-design the entire array would be to simply introduce some shielding around the cone to prevent return noise. I'm sure it already has some kind of shielding.

 

 

What jumps to mind is a simple lattice of some carbon-ferrous material, which if isolated in rubber or similar material coolant could be introduced to increase its induction parameters. I'd include a copper lattice, separate and inside this ferrous lattice and any excess potential from the outer lattice could be sent to a condenser.

 

 

I am not an electronics engineer though and I can only say what comes to mind. Probably not even worth commenting on.

 

 

 

 

attached image edited/ from manual p.14

radar-shielding.thumb.jpg.cecbd6a958d1fc11a0665965b51394a4.jpg

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 229
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

Tbh, I am a bit confused about this thread ... what is it about? Reporting a bug or problem with the radar? Trying to gain some understanding about the function and abilities of the radar? Trying to design a better radar?

 

Pleasy, everybody, don't get me wrong - I am just trying to dig through all this mix-up of facts, wishes and ideas ...

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Tbh, I am a bit confused about this thread ... what is it about? Reporting a bug or problem with the radar? Trying to gain some understanding about the function and abilities of the radar? Trying to design a better radar?

 

Pleasy, everybody, don't get me wrong - I am just trying to dig through all this mix-up of facts, wishes and ideas ...

 

Well, who knows. It started off as a bug report, came past a somewhat technical explanation on why things are how they are and finally started to become a suggestion how to improve the real radar. A bit strange, but if you ask me, interesting none the less! :pilotfly:

Check out my YouTube: xxJohnxx

 

Intel i7 6800k watercooled | ASUS Rampage V Edition 10 | 32 GB RAM | Asus GTX1080 watercooled

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 weeks later...

If I understand correctly, the ASP piper size can't be slaved at all with the radar ranging?

 

This would have been great to have this feature available when outside the minimum range of the radar (in addition to aiming assistance, a great tool to adjust the target size when unkown) - but if it's not modelled on the real thing, well, too bad ;).

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 2 months later...
If I understand correctly, the ASP piper size can't be slaved at all with the radar ranging?

 

This would have been great to have this feature available when outside the minimum range of the radar (in addition to aiming assistance, a great tool to adjust the target size when unkown) - but if it's not modelled on the real thing, well, too bad .

 

The target-size can't but I've discovered a way around this issue with the 300m "Golidilocks-zone". :pilotfly:

 

DCS: MiG 21BIS - Make the most out of the ASP Optical Sight and Sapphire Radar

 

A video showing how easy it would be to aim the Gsh-23 gun if the ASP used the Sapphire to get precise range to target rather than "fixing" the firing solution at a mystical .3km goldilocks-zone.

 

(Solution starts at 7:24)

 

PS: It works so well you can engage large slow-moving air targets with the unguided rockets. Haha xD

PPS: I also didn't bother to un-cage the Pipper from the longitudinal-axis, but someone can try that if they want. :P

_________________________


Goldilocks and the 3 Bears 3-D

 

"Welcome! Welcome to our enchanted forest, where we present fairy-tales in 3-D. That's right! Fairy-tales that look like they come right out of the screen!"

 

"And now, now for the first time ever, you're going to see Goldilocks and the 3 Bears in LawrenceVision 3-D."

 

_________________________


Rihanna - Phresh Out The Runway - Victoria's Secret Fashion Show 2012

 

"
Ladies and gentlement please welcome back to the stage, Rihanna
."

 

"
I see you walk. Na me, na me na, de do
."

 

 

_________________________


"
What is it you fear? --The end of your trivial existence
?"

 

"
When the history of my glory is written, your species shall only be a foot-note to my magnificence
."

 

-

 


Edited by Shark-Bait
added post-script
  • Like 1
Link to comment
Share on other sites

When you switch between AUTO and MAN modes for the gun, you have to change the wingspan setting. Automatic mode uses the scale printed on the knob, and manual mode uses the scale in the window.

Black Shark, Harrier, and Hornet pilot

Many Words - Serial Fiction | Ka-50 Employment Guide | Ka-50 Avionics Cheat Sheet | Multiplayer Shooting Range Mission

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Useful stuff here

 

Thanks for the good rep, PiedDroit. I dunno why Fish gave me bad rep for this thread.

 

Thanks for the video Shark-Bait...

 

Man those UB-32 rockets are really underpowered..no wonder can't kill anything effectively.

 

No probs :)

 

Oh and yeah! I shot an E-3A with around 6 UB-32 salvos and it was still flying? o.O Might as well throw rocks at it from out the cockpit, lol.

 

 

_____________________________________

Rihanna is too cool, S.H-O.DAN.. go man-dem on that censorship.

 

Phresh Out The Runway (Victoria's Secret 2012) UNCENSORED

somevid.com/60Gbv7BMbyhyl8Ka3rem

 

 

 

icu_S.H-O.DAN

 

:D


Edited by Shark-Bait
added reply to speckfire
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah I just discovered that "add to reputation" thingy (I've been actively following the forum only recently) I should use it more :music_whistling:

 

Regarding the S-5 rockets they were phased out in favor of the S-8 because they were seriously underpowered.

For A-A use, considering the rocket does not have a proximity fuse and weights around 5kg total, I'm not surprised that it performs poorly against aircraft.

 

Also, when using the A-G mode for A-A gunnery, considering the bullet TOF is about 1-2 seconds, the A-G mode should not take the target travel distance in account (because the ground is not flying, heh).

Then the piper should logically lag behind by a few hundred meters in this mode.

When in low G pursuit this might not be a problem, but in high-G pursuit that should degrade the aim dramatically - to be tested.

 

The good old "wait for the target to fill the HUD then let 'er rip" from WWII is still valid :pilotfly::joystick:


Edited by PiedDroit
Link to comment
Share on other sites

Yeah I just discovered that "add to reputation" thingy (I've been actively following the forum only recently) I should use it more music_whistling.gif

 

Regarding the S-5 rockets they were phased out in favor of the S-8 because they were seriously underpowered.

 

I remember strafing jets with those S-8s in my Black Shark way back in v1 multiplayer. Haha. I love those S-8s.

 

For A-A use, considering the rocket does not have a proximity fuse and weights around 5kg total, I'm not surprised that it performs poorly against aircraft.

 

... And yet it can be used against light-armor? ;-)

 

Also, when using the A-G mode for A-A gunnery, considering the bullet TOF is about 1-2 seconds, the A-G mode should not take the target travel distance in account (because the ground is not flying, heh).

 

You can see when you click from MAN to AUTO that the pipper jumps up, because it is constantly updating the ranging information rather than going by the Barometric alt and whatever other instrument it gets its ranging info from.

 

I just wish the damn aiming gyros worked better. It's still Beta tho and I'm sure all these aiming 'issues' will be stamped out in future releases.

 

Then the piper should logically lag behind by a few hundred meters in this mode.

 

The aircraft is traveling around 200m/s at 700km/h.. The bullets travel at hyper-sonic velocities. Considering we're talking about a range of < 300m .. I know what you're saying, but respectfully.. I think the TOF might not be as much of an issue when I'm within throwing distance of that big-ass E-3A ;-)

 

IF the TOF is 1-2 seconds at 300m range... they are seriously slow bullets lol. I saw a vid online where someone was complaining about the Grom traveling real slow.. so maybe they are. ;)

 

When in low G pursuit this might not be a problem, but in high-G pursuit that should degrade the aim dramatically - to be tested.

 

Right.. And it's still Beta, so many of these issues might vanish and this thread'll become obsolete. Hopefully sooner rather than later. :-p

 

The good old "wait for the target to fill the HUD then let 'er rip" from WWII is still valid pilotfly.gifjoystick.gif

 

Haha. Best tip ever.

 

But take for example the Pipper taking up the entire HUD in 'AUTO' mode when you put in the Wingspan for the E-3A.. That shouldn't happen. When you turn on labels, at even .2km dst the target aircraft doesn't look that big.

 

I think there may be some issue there with the POV 'cos when you jump to outside view [F2] the other aircraft look a lot closer.

 

All I can think of it is such an incredibly complex simulator and the module is still Beta.. And DCS: World 2 will be released soon. It looks amazing! And so priority is probably being focused on the new version.

 

I plan to purchase the new MiG-15bis module and others.. When I get some money.

 

This whole thing with the ammunition has been on my mind since before I even purchased the MiG-21bis module.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

Shape of Russian ammunition taking into account transonic Area Rule


 


Most modern firearm bullets are supersonic, with rifle projectiles often traveling at speeds approaching and in some cases exceeding Mach 3. The transonic area rule, is a design technique used to reduce an aircraft's drag at transonic and supersonic speeds, particularly between Mach 0.75 and 1.2.


 


At high-subsonic flight speeds, the local speed of the airflow can reach the speed of sound where the flow accelerates around the aircraft body and wings. The resulting shock waves formed at these points of sonic flow can greatly reduce power, which is experienced by the aircraft as a sudden and very powerful drag, called wave drag.


 


Why aren’t the projectile munitions also re-shaped so that they do not decelerate as quickly?


 


Higher sustained velocity would increase the range of the cannons and make it easier to hit targets all the while leaving the remaining characteristics unaffected. All that needs to be changed are the actual rounds, the cannons need not be changed.


 


- - -


 

Also, it wouldn't be difficult to have individual digital-timers in each ammunition round. This is already used in modern-day anti-aircraft batteries. These digital-timers can be set automatically with data taken from radar and onboard targeting systems.

 

The HE anti-aircraft rounds could have two detonation options. --Forward-directed charge, or wider-angle/side-directed charge/ or just a combat mix of both. I'd have smaller bursts, 6-12 rounds, and every 3rd round detonate at a reduced distance of 10m-20m.

 

So 2 out of 3 rounds that impact the target aircraft directly with both forward and wider-angle detonation, while 1 out of 3 rounds would detonate slightly early projecting shrapnel forward.

 

__________


The benefits?

 

- All those stray rounds that narrowly miss the aircraft with un-timed rounds will now detonate when they reach the distance of the target, causing damage, rather than just falling to the ground.

 

- It will allow spreading of the burst. distributing damage to the target, since the rounds will all detonate at the distance of the target anyway.

 

- The pilot does not need to worry about attempting to calculate the exact arc needed to impact the target.

 

- - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - -

 

This whole thing of 'locking' the range at 300m is interesting.. I mean at 700km/h you'll be traveling at 195m per second, so in 1.5 seconds you could be at the position of where you hit the target.. And that's traveling relatively slowly compared to a bullet. (Unless as mentioned above they are seriously slow bullets) .. So when firing explosive HE anti-aircraft rounds .. pretty dangerous. :megalol:

 

It just makes more sense to me that 300m is not the 'max' firing range of the aircraft and most definitely that ASP should be able to give you a firing solution on a target from 500-600m away.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The target plane is not standing in the air though ;). Unless we're trying to hit a hovering chopper.

 

BTW, muzzle velocity of GSh-23 is typical for all similar caliber weapons - a bit above 700 m/s.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I tried to use the A-G method for A-A gunnery but I had no luck against the F-4 in instant action mission, i didn't work at all, I had the distance correct (fixed beam mode) and everything else set but the piper wasn't following the target as it should, always being too high relatively to the actual bullet path, even at close range.

 

Only thing that works well for me so far is to get really close and use the A-A sight for lead estimation, this combo is hard to beat.

 

My opinion here is that this method (A-G mode) is valid only for non maneuvering targets but even in that case there is no justification for a long distance shot.

For a maneuvering target you have no choice but to be real close, and for slower targets you can close in easily for a good shot and the GSh-23 will tear down anything to pieces with a 1-2 seconds burst so you don't have to worry about the necessity to do a second pass.

 

But no worries that was an interesting research you did there ;)

 

EDIT: when I was talking about 1-2 seconds bullet TOF I was of course talking about long distance shooting, because at 300m you don't really need the radar range to hit something ;)


Edited by PiedDroit
Link to comment
Share on other sites

EDIT: when I was talking about 1-2 seconds bullet TOF I was of course talking about long distance shooting, because at 300m you don't really need the radar range to hit something

 

Yeah it should be a breeze! :thumbup:

 

Unless we're trying to hit a hovering chopper.

 

That's exactly why I started using the fixed beam mode, lol.

 

I was trying to engage choppers (a dangerous business) and they were impossible to pick up on the radar (at least to me).. so I thought -hey, they're moving so slow why not use A2G mode? At least A2G mode works.. And it did, better than I expected.

 

So I thought I'd mention this so other people could benefit from it while the lads update the module and tweak the ASP and A2A modes for DCS: World v2.

 

The target plane is not standing in the air though .

 

Neither is my aircraft or my GSh-23 ;-)

 

BTW, muzzle velocity of GSh-23 is typical for all similar caliber weapons - a bit above 700 m/s.

 

Cool.

 

From: en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gryazev-Shipunov_GSh-23

 

Gryazev-Shipunov GSh-23 Muzzle velocity : 715 m/s (that's 2574 km/h)

 

Except the laws of physics haven't been suspended by the Gsh-23 wiki page. So you will need to add the aircraft's velocity (to which the gun is attached) to the final muzzle velocity. :smartass:

 

... Unless the round stops at the end of the cannon barrel and says, "wait a sec lads, the wiki page says I should be going at 715 m/s but I'm leaving this thing at a real-velocity of 909 m/s.. let's just take a break, have a kit-kat and slow down to the what the wiki-page says is correct." :pilotfly:

 

Because otherwise, tracking a target at equal velocity will lower the issues of firing on a moving target at close range.

 

'Cos me being a round that has no engine, I will not be able to keep up with that target that is traveling at a constant velocity.. Except I'm already moving at that same velocity before I was even fired! :doh: Em.. I'm just confused, 'cos I'm just a gun-round and physics is beyond me.

 

I'll just stick with the wiki-page and decelerate as I leave the gun barrel. Sorted. ;-p

 

_____________________________________________________

Random thoughts on my thoughts above regarding digital-timers:

 

(Obviously the 2 out of 3 rounds timed to impact the aircraft directly wouldn't be timed to hit the rear (unless that would cause the most damage) but would instead be timed at a couple metres ahead of the rear of the aircraft.

 

Modern radar can determine what type of aircraft is being targeted and so the rounds could be timed to detonate, for example, more towards the rear of the bomb bay of a B-52.)

 

If the rounds do not impact directly, directed charges could create an expanding cone of fragmentation particles which through a type of continuously-calculated impact-point based on the target's speed, distance and trajectory, could allow the targeting computer to automatically input the necessary time needed to cause the most damage.

 

This could be done in micro-seconds, the pilot would not need to be involved in this process.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Mate, I have no idea what You're getting at, neither in Your last long reply, nor in the previous one. My "standing target" comment was just aimed at this part....

 

I mean at 700km/h you'll be traveling at 195m per second, so in 1.5 seconds you could be at the position of where you hit the target.. And that's traveling relatively slowly compared to a bullet. (Unless as mentioned above they are seriously slow bullets) .. So when firing explosive HE anti-aircraft rounds .. pretty dangerous. :megalol:

 

... which is just worded in a very confusing way, because even if one moves some distance within this 1.5 sec, so does the target, why would firing HE rounds be dangerous for attacker then? Unless, again, we're aiming at stationary target.

 

On a sidenote, how well does "slow target" radar filter work against choppers (If it does)? I admit I haven't tested it so far.

i7 9700K @ stock speed, single GTX1070, 32 gigs of RAM, TH Warthog, MFG Crosswind, Win10.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • 1 month later...

There are three modes to fire AA guns in a mig:

1. "fixed 300": It is a MANUAL, GYRO setting and the wingspan is also set to give you a hint when the target is 300m away (then it will fill the diamond circle). It is a mode against agile targets

2. AUTO, GYRO mode: this is possible when you have lock and you are pursuing a non maneuvering target (less than 3g otherwise the piper flies off the HUD) and the engagement distance is 600-2000m (in case of loseing lock the distance is set to 600m).

3. Traverse firing (it can be both auto or manual distance but definitely not in GYRO) in that case the g load is taken out of the equation of the trajectory and you are using the fixed net to position the target somehow flying trough the burst. It is good for agile targets.

 

So auto distancing will not work in dogfights, as the piper will anyway be out of sight for most of the time, even when someone is such a topgun that he can maintain lock for the fight.

 

However a properly working ASP gives countless possibilities to explore. You van for example set half of the wingspan manually and set the trajectory to 600m manually, and engage accurately at 600m without switching the radar on.

 

The GS is a capable gun, there should be no problem laying bullets accurately on a stationary target 1-1,2km away if you have an accurately implemented sight, which we will have I am sure.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

There were some heated debates on that with countless sources some even translated from russian. That what I was able to catch from those debates.

 

LNs point to my best knowledge is that based on the inputs of an alleged mig-21 pilot there is no radar ranging and that's it they only work on the ballistics.

 

The most convincing evidence to radar ranging is attached. One of the arrows going from the saphire to the ASP says "current distance" in russian (i do not know which one).

 

For me the most convincing evidence is that radar ranging is something introduced two fighter generations prior to the bis and flying the sim makes it evident for me that no sane military would send a pilot up with an ASP which works as poorly as ours :)

asp_002.thumb.jpg.cd8cc42a7718445f8a65d550eb99534d.jpg


Edited by sissypilot
Link to comment
Share on other sites

For me the most convincing evidence is that radar ranging is something introduced two fighter generations prior to the bis and flying the sim makes it evident for me that no sane military would send a pilot up with an ASP which works as poorly as ours :)

I wouldn't bet on this one lol, remember the F-4? :megalol:

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No. I never flown that. Which sim?

I am not a big dogfighter though. My interest is more technical. I rarely shoot :) I like starting engines, planning routes approaches etc.. that is why the mig-21 bis is a must have for me, it is almost perfect :)

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I never flown it either but it's notorious for the fact that it didn't have a gun to begin with, because the brass was convinced that gun dogfights were a thing of the past and all combat would be done using missiles.

Turned out that missiles did not perform as expected and also depending on ROE it was necessary to close in for ID.

So, the gun was alive and well, they fitted a 20mm on a pod to bridge the gap and later the F-4 had it's own internal gun (below the nose).

So, the "no sane military would send..." argument is very funny because we all have examples (in all types of forces) that shows the contrary :D

 

But no worries I fully agree with you about the ASP itself ;)

I'd really like - and find realistic - to have radar ranging for the gun in A-A, but if it's proven that it was - or wasn't - the case IRL, I'll go with it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I mean if a plane has a gun and a radar and the technology is available for decades to feed the aiming device with radar distance no sane developer would miss that opportunity. The MIG's ASP has some 10 possible combination of modes. You can fire with guns and unguded rockets radar distance or guesstimation, traverse firing or giro aiming name it...

 

Some MIG-21's (the PF as I remember) didnt have guns either, those neighter had radar, only a pair of IR missiles and were supposed to be guided by ground radar. I guess their ASP did not have a A-A gun mode, but guess what they had A-A ungided rocket mode :) The problem of feeding HUD in A-A gun mode with radar data was solved long before the f-4 or Mig-21, search radars in other earlier russian planes like Mig-17 or mig-19 were capable of that. I see no reason why a later version of a next generation fighter plane would be downgraded.

 

Some later training versions were also not equipped with radar, but they did have a gun and guess what they were installed with a small range findig radar to support the gun in the absence of a search radar.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...