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Improving Gun-run Performance


Nerdwing

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Hello there :)

 

I've been trying to improve my GAU-8 accuracy recently, but have had a few problems that have resulted in less-than-stellar performance.

 

I've been told to employ high angle shooting (25-30+ degrees) when engaging tanks, but am curious if I should employ the same techniques versus the hated BMP's, and the (slightly less feared) ZSU's, BTR-80's etc.

 

I generally will roll in from 9k feet at minimum, when the target is at most 3 miles off my side. I then attempt to line up a shot and fire from 1.4 miles, to 1 at most. This is dangerous, as you can expect (think I'm supposed to use 1.7 to 1.4 for Shilkas, I dont remember). Throttle at idle, no speed break etc.

 

Should I be employing the steep-dives versus all targets, or just tanks? Dispersion is tighter at these angles of course, but since I have to hold TAB to initiate PAC-1, and then my stick trigger to initiate PAC-2, I'm finding I can stray a good ways off target. How far out do you guys normally use PAC-1 when you're engaging light armor like the BMP, BTR etc?

 

The reason I'm hesitant to engage from that king of angle is the risk of entering the firing envelope of the enemy, as well as the very real risk of over-G'ing my airframe as I break. Having to both roll out and employ some vertical maneuvering after firing raises raises alot of concern, and I routinely pull 5 G's (at most 7!) while rolling out. I only use the gun aggressively when I'm out of ordnance of course, to reduce the risk of airframe damage.

 

So yeah. Versus ALL targets, is it best to employ the dive attacks at higher angles? Or is that something unique versus tanks? If it is indeed the best general tactic for gun-runs versus single targets, what ranges do you all find best to cease the attack and begin the roll-out to best limit the chance of enemy return-fire hitting you? Namely 14.5mm and 30mm threats. How much ammo do you expend versus one of these targets? I can do 200 rounds versus a BMP to assure a kill, but thats some long-ish range shooting. At $20 a round, I figure I'm still well below the price of the BMP-2 at least!

 

Sorry for the overly verbose post :(

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Tanks, for me, is 40-45 degrees every time unless its a lone t-55 I can do a real low <5 degree strafe.

My typical profiles (I am no realism expert, and don't claim to be, but this it what works for me)

 

Tanks

Roll in (no speed brake) - 5,500 AGL at 1.5 nm, 200 KIAS. 0-40 degree offset, pac-1 at .9nm roughly.

 

(Speed brake) 7000 AGL at 1.7nm 210-230 KIAS.

 

Bmps/ APCS

Roll in anywhere from 200 to 7000 AGL without brakes between 2 and 2.5nm. Firing 1 second burst at 1.2nm.

 

Shilkas I come in a little higher so I have a little more speed on the escape maneuver if Im unable to kill it. I end up using over 100 rounds 1.5 - 2 seconds, as I am off at 1.4nm and the dispersion requires the rounds.

 

If you're snapping wings off youre either coming in too fast or are off target too late. Start the dive nice and slow and be off target by .5nm. I think the "book" answer is .5nm though I regularly am off at .4 and still almost never snap wings. Less than 100 rounds is very doable on any T-series.

 

IMO, tanks are the least dangerous of all armed vehicles (outside of arty) to you so kill all the AAA, APCs and IFVs first. (Mission dependant) If you have any bombs or maverick, take out any tanks that are mutually supporting eachother. I.E. two tanks close to eachother facing opposite directions.

Your target may not light you up when you're about to pull the trigger but tanks facing you will as the coax gun has less to traverse to aim at you.

 

Practice and lots of practice. Especially true for keeping the pipper on target.

PAC is a great tool but still not perfect. Trim for your strafing speed, roll the wings slightly if you have to.

 

I can post a track tomorrow if you want.


Edited by Mike5560
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My basic run is usually a roll in from 6-9K and 200-250 kias, usually dive in at ~30 degrees and engage PAC-1 as soon as the pipper is on target (supposed to be in PAC-1 for 8 seconds), burst at ~1 mi, and break smoothy in vertical and horizonal planes trying to conserve as much energy as possible for the climb and extension.

 

Although I vary the technique slightly for different targets. I'll engage a shilka from higher to get more speed, fire from a longer range (~1.5 miles) and a longer burst to compensate for the dispersion.

 

BMP-2's will *BITE*, so I treat them like shilka's.

 

Other APC types and lightly armored vehicles I usually engage at 1 mile or so and use far fewer rounds, it doesn't take much to turn them into smoke & fire.

 

T-55's get a rear aspect & high dive angle with about a half second of fire from a mile or so.

 

T-90's are tough bastards, I engage them from just inside a mile with at least a second of fire.

 

Artillery and trucks I usually do shallow dives (10-20 deg) and try to get at least a few in one pass, but not until the high threat targets are gone.

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You definitely want to use 45'+ dive angles against tanks. Against anything else it doesn't really matter as much.

 

You wanna open fire at around 0.8 nm slant range and hold fire for as long as you dare then pull out. Its very possible to kill even T-90s at that high angle. Against BMPs and the like its enough to fire at about 1.5nm. Against anything soft 2nm is plenty. Its actually very easy to snipe Shilkas and AAA without facing any meaningful threat.

 

Dispersion of the GAU should be uniform despite dive angle. Steep dive angles just ensure the flashlight effect of the cone of fire impacts the target better. Dispersion of impacts increases or decreases on the target but the flashlight beam should always have the same shape, if I understand the geometry of how things work (sometimes I don't!).

 

Effectiveness in all forms of attack is just about consistency and practice. You want to practice doing it properly the same way over and over, not just focusing on one thing but aiming to have the whole attack run from roll in to pull out being a well orchestrated string of precise actions. Avoiding over Ging the aircraft is again all about practice. You can practice the roll in and pull out by doing dry attack runs. This way you don't need to worry about hitting a target and instead focus on getting a feel for how to pull out without breaking wings off.

 

Real life Safe Escape Maneuvers prescribe achieving 4 Gs of positive climb within 2 seconds of beginning the maneuver. This means you ease into the high G pull... quickly. No yanking. I do know for a fact though that much better pilots than I who I fly with regularly will come home with their Accelerometers reading 7Gs or more during the flight so... its hard to do, given our lack of 'gut' feeling.

 

A professional clean attack would involve lots of little steps each involving a degree of precision and/or a mark you're trying to hit. Line up, roll, pull, level, track, pickle/fire, SEM. At every step you can critique yourself because at every step you should be looking to see something to know you're on track. When everything goes right it isn't even like you're making an effort. If its not effortless then you know you did something wrong.

 

As for throttle management, if its 30' or below I just stand them up rather than go idle. Its important to keep as much speed as possible and its only high angle dives that require idle to avoid overspeeding. The A-10 is a slow pig, don't give it any encouragement.

 

https://www.youtube.com/user/476vFG/videos

Lots of goodies in there to show those very steps btw. There are demonstrations of the three main escape maneuvers, various types of dive attack. There are some threads that detail how to do proper CCIP bombing around here and if someone or I can find them for you they contain information relevant to gun as well since the roll in is basically identical.

 

EDIT. http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=117350&page=6

That whole thread is gold.

 

(supposed to be in PAC-1 for 8 seconds)

 

I believe that particular aspect of LASTE was patched out a long time ago. References to that 8 second settling period come from outdated A model manuals.


Edited by P*Funk

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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^ good info about the PAC, I do think i read that in an old manual. I find in practice 8 seconds is really an awful long time, but I make it a point to engage it as soon as I'm satisifed with my aim (hopefully immediately after the roll) and hold it until I reached my desired slant range.

 

I agree 100% with P*Funk on the mental checklist and that feeling when everything is going right. It's a procedure like anything else, you know when you're doing it right and you know when you've screwed up, just like an instrument approach. It might take some practice, but there are plenty of missions made up just for that purpose.

 

And don't be afraid to abort a run if you're not 100% satisifed with the way its going, it's better to go around than to waste your ammo or get shot up.

 

I might add that a common mistake I see people do is that they will pray & spray. That is doing the GAU-8 a great disservice, the thing is a goddamn sniper rifle for all intents; the rounds *will* hit where the pipper lies. Firing rounds in the general direction of the target is not at all effective.

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And don't be afraid to abort a run if you're not 100% satisifed with the way its going, it's better to go around than to waste your ammo or get shot up.

Definitely. Saving your ammo, and especially your stores, is important especially since every full attack is putting the airframe in danger so if you press when you have no confidence in success its an unnecessary risk.

 

One thing to note however is that when working in a 2 ship element being near enough to the target is sometimes good enough because you can have your wingie tell you about your effect on target and you can use that to adjust your aim if seeing the target is hard. This is in particular very effective when dealing with high winds and you can basically trade wind correction information by saying "I held this far right" and in the end be successful quicker and with fewer stores.

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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Thanks for the tips, guys! So is 1.5 to 1.1 enough range to assure a BTR wont hit me with its 14.5mm? Is 2 to 1.5 enough for a BMP's 2A42, or too far even?

 

Assuming there's no other vehicle closer to you, 1.1 for both BMPs and APCs. But you have to be off maneuvering immediately. I start a 1 sec burst (maybe a little less than 1 second) starting at 1.2nm. You can see their guns firing while you're firing but you're moving at 250+ kts and a climb/ turn can be done, even without a chopped stall warning and not get hit.

 

I think attacking their side/ obliques is better than head on or tail for them due to the larger exposed area.

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Very well, I'm going to try and be more ammo conservative then. I'm down to 120 rounds average vs BMP-2's, and in 24 kills I was only hit once. Hope to get it down to <100 rounds, and not be hit at all :P

 

1979 trials put average burst length at 0.69 seconds, and firing range versus tanks at roughly half a mile.

 

I... guess they were a bit optimistic about counter fire from the vehicles, to say the least!


Edited by Nerdwing
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I usually CBU APC's without gun run. I like to keep gun to tanks (its original purpose).

 

I usually circle within 3 miles from last Z point and fire till I see lights under tanks emitting.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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I usually CBU APC's without gun run. I like to keep gun to tanks (its original purpose).

 

I usually circle within 3 miles from last Z point and fire till I see lights under tanks emitting.

 

Really? I just use Mavericks against SAM's and only resort to the gun if all heavy ordnance is expended. Against modern armor, the GAU-8 (though it does damage) just doesnt seem very efficient.

 

CBU's I use against any grouped unit, generally convoys or FARP's etc.

 

Had no luck tonight improving my Ammo:Kill ratio. Still at a hundred or so rounds per BMP-2 killed. Here's hoping tomorrow yields better results! :) What kind of ratios are you folks getting normally in combat vs BMP's/MTLB's?


Edited by Nerdwing
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Against modern armor, the GAU-8 (though it does damage) just doesnt seem very efficient

 

It takes 70 - 100 rounds per kill for Main Battle tanks (T-80/M1). Fire at 0.7nm, breaking off before 0.4nm.

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Well I usually just use hei gun load and get kills on bmps and lighter at 2.8 and further. Hei is epic, it is especially useful for those missions you know your not going against tanks. Also the high angle attack I usually get hei kills out to 5 miles on man pads. Just like in real life use the ballistics and gravity to your advantage.

Hei kills light skin vehicles easily with a 20 round burst.

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I usually use a steep angle and quite low distance for tanks. About -60° or more and fire at a distance of a mile.

 

Against those deadly BMP2's and similar I prefer a medium angle (40-60°) and distance of about 2nm. If you get closer you easily get your gun damaged and then the fun is over. Works well for everything that isn't armored well:

Low altitude airdefence can be engaged from high altitude with dive angles around 80° and firing from about 3nm quite savely. Iglas, shilkas, strelas... this distance requires quite a burst (~2-3s) even at a very steep angle, but hey... safety first ^^

 

If the target is single you can go closer, for example if there is one shilka left and I'm already low, I'd roll in on target at about 2-3nm. If I can align quickly I fire a burst and immideatly break away. If I can't align fast enough I wave off right away. The shilka will usually miss while turning hard enough, bit risky though


Edited by Maverick-X
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can someone remind me if there is a gun ammo counter on HUD?

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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can someone remind me if there is a gun ammo counter on HUD?

 

Yes.

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Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder!

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I usually CBU APC's without gun run. I like to keep gun to tanks (its original purpose).

 

I usually circle within 3 miles from last Z point and fire till I see lights under tanks emitting.

 

 

+1 Pulling off target I might take a few shots as I line up with an evasion maneuver, but this is rare as the separation is usually to far off to line up and evade.

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I usually use a steep angle and quite low distance for tanks. About -60° or more and fire at a distance of a mile.

 

Against those deadly BMP2's and similar I prefer a medium angle (40-60°) and distance of about 2nm. If you get closer you easily get your gun damaged and then the fun is over. Works well for everything that isn't armored well:

Low altitude airdefence can be engaged from high altitude with dive angles around 80° and firing from about 3nm quite savely. Iglas, shilkas, strelas... this distance requires quite a burst (~2-3s) even at a very steep angle, but hey... safety first ^^

 

If the target is single you can go closer, for example if there is one shilka left and I'm already low, I'd roll in on target at about 2-3nm. If I can align quickly I fire a burst and immideatly break away. If I can't align fast enough I wave off right away. The shilka will usually miss while turning hard enough, bit risky though

 

At 2 miles, how many runs does it take to guarantee a BMP kill? It seems to be about 50:50 with me. I generally get damage on target at least.

 

I can get kills, I'm just wondering about my efficiency with regard to rounds spent. If I fire at 0.5, I can get 80-90% hit rate easy. Hell at 1 mile I can get kills almost always. But at 1.5, things get a bit sketchy.


Edited by Nerdwing
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just don't engage APC's with gun. its useless, their rate of fire is high and in campaign I had my share of failures from doing so. if you MUST, be above 8000 feet (but that means steep = crash, or far = less grouping)...

 

I usually split my attack into strata, starting high altitude: bombs (smart) 15-20k , medium 8k-15 k :unguided bombs and rockets, low 6k-8k (gun), ultra low 3k-6k: CAS guns and rockets light payload and <35% fuel.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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Gun vs APC is highly efficient assuming a 1:1 ratio of passes to kills per target, and then there's the added efficiency of the two target strafe attack where you can nail 2 targets in a single pass. Thats not going to be effective against tanks given the short window for engagement within required firing range.


Edited by P*Funk

Warning: Nothing I say is automatically correct, even if I think it is.

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Ive just been learning pop up attacks which i have tried to explain below. Im no expert but happy to share what I have learned. It has totally changed the way I play dcs which now feels like a brand new game. If ive made some mistakes feel free to correct me.

 

To learn pop up attacks all you need is training rounds, smoke rockets and nothing else (ditch your tgp). Find a field and fire smoke into the middle of it. Slew your hud onto the smoke (this is your target) and tms up long it. Set your tad so the outer ring is at 5miles. Get about 7ish miles from the target and fly as fast as you can as low as you can (under 100ft). Fly offset to the target. When the wedding cake on your tad is at the 3 o'clock position just outside the inner ring (just over 2.5 miles out) pull up and look for the target it should be just infront of your wingtip, roll onto your side (keep looking at the target it will now be above your head in the middle of the canopy). Pull back on the stick, the target will travel down the canopy, roll over a bit more when the target is coming into your hud so your nose is pointing down (you never want to he pushing up with the stick). Line up your target, you should still be about 2.5 miles away (hopefully just out of range). Shoot that bas@#rd, turn away hard, dump a few flares, jink and get back down to <100ft asap. Keep practicing until you can do it in your sleep and you are comfortable flying low.

 

This is how the a10 was designed to be flown (so ive been told).

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pop-up attacks require terrain masking. the majority of Georgia is low terrain except for few hilly spots and mountain bases that usually result in me slamming tops or worse, getting nailed. still its one of the things on my todo list. thanks for reminding me :D

 

You know, we could really use a seminar in planning attacks using terrain masking.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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OP, attached is a track of a training mission I made strafing a variety of targets. Maybe it will give you an idea. To me, it helps to approach the broadside of any vehicle (except for tanks) so you have a larger exposed area.

 

Of course, this is a nice gentle medium altitude environment where I know where all the targets are. IMHO, it's best to get some good practice from medium altitude first, then work some terrain masking low altitude pop up attacks. Then progress onto the single mission "In The Weeds" which really tests your ability to work low altitude, unknown threat locations and limited avenues of approach.

AAA airfield.trk

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I did not take a look at the track, but broadside is heavily armored. You need to attack top and aft where armor is thinnest. it would be nice if vehicle occupants can be modeled to be killed (in place of health bar). It doesn't have to blow smoke, but at least split damage to mobility, etc... high hopes for ED to release a full blown M1A2 (or was it A1?) module.

AWAITING ED NEW DAMAGE MODEL IMPLEMENTATION FOR WW2 BIRDS

 

Fat T is above, thin T is below. Long T is faster, Short T is slower. Open triangle is AWACS, closed triangle is your own sensors. Double dash is friendly, Single dash is enemy. Circle is friendly. Strobe is jammer. Strobe to dash is under 35 km. HDD is 7 times range key. Radar to 160 km, IRST to 10 km. Stay low, but never slow.

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