Questions about supporting missiles.

Hi guys, I should know this by now, but I just want to make 100% sure that I am correct with this:

A) If I fire more than one R-27R or R-27ER while on STT, all the missiles are supported and guided by the radar.

B) If I switch weapons and fire an IR missile after a R-27R or R-27ER, always keeping the radar lock, my semi active is still supported.

C) R-27T & ET are not cued by radar or IRST, so they're probably not going to fly towards the target if I launch them with override before they get a lock.

D) The way to know if a SAR missile hit or missed, without seeing the explosion, is to approximately calculate its time of flight to the target and to check the radar picture. (I've found myself many times supporting missiles that already missed the target, either by overshooting it or by losing energy).

E) There is no indication if a semi active missile is tracking a target or not after launch, and therefore if it still needs to be supported.

Many thanks.

A) I'm not completely sure, but I think you can guide multiple missiles at once.

B) Yes, changing weapons doesn't affect your other missiles.

C) The T/ET can lock on after it is launch, but at long ranges you shouldn't count on it.

D) Yes, there's no indication a missile has missed, you have to guesstimate it.

E) As long as you keep your target locked, a SARH will keep tracking, unless it misses. But as you said in D) there's no indication for that.

Hope that helped.

Thanks for your answer EngineerFalcon.

Yes on all counts!

Thanks Rage, any tips you'd like to share regarding D and E?

A useful estimate calculation for judging when a missile will hit:

If we assume:

1. The target is aware of us and the missile launch and will therefore make the it's rate of closure to us near zero (notch for example).

2. We approximate for the missile, in this case an R-27ER, travelling at Vmax from the point of launch. Inaccurate I know but since the huge boost motor of the R-27ER makes it accelerate incredibly quickly this isn't too much of an approximation.

3. A rough estimate for Vmax for an R-27ER in DCS appears to be ~3,000 Km/h which equates to 833 m/s.

4. We assume a launch range of 20Km. This should be rather short for an ER, but in DCS this is a very rough approximate for a launch range that gives a semi-decent Pk.

So, if we plug these numbers in to the equation for speed, i.e. t=x/v then we get a time to target of 24 seconds for the R-27ER.

So, under these conditions if you don't see a destroyed target within 25 seconds it's probably safe to assume that the missle lost guidance or missed. Obviously the relevant time will significantly decrease if the target is heading for us instead of turning away.

To help with guessing if the missle missed, try to follow the missile plume and smoke trail as it heads for the target. As you get within ~15-18Km you should be able to pick up the target visually. If the missile trail diverges significantly from the target vector then the missile has probably been decoyed.

Try this a few times with labels turned on and you'll see it happen. As it is, the R-27R and R-27ER are very susceptible to being decoyed by countermeasures but that's a different discussion I guess :noexpression:

Nice one DarkFire. I guess is trial and error. An then some educated guesses. I wonder how they do it in RL, if they have charts or something.

The rule of thumb is:

2sec/nm head-on

3sec/nm on the beam

4sec/nm tail-chase

Thanks Rage, any tips you'd like to share regarding D and E?

Sorry, didn't see this post! Anyways Darkfire and GG have answered nicely.

I would argue that you shouldnt wait to find out if your missile missed or not before you fire another;)

Sorry, didn't see this post! Anyways Darkfire and GG have answered nicely.

 

I would argue that you shouldnt wait to find out if your missile missed or not before you fire another;)

Thanks, and yes I'd totally agree, the Su-27 in particular carries sufficient missiles so that it's not necessary to be too cautious in expending another one, or even two, to help ensure a kill. Particularly with the miserable seeker head performance of the R-27ER as it is now.

It'd be interesting to know what the VKS (apparently the PVO and VVS have amalgamated) have in their inventory and what they actually carry on their front line Flanker squadron birds. I suppose we're unlikely to find out because that's the sort of thing the CIA / MI6 would also like to know :)

Edited to add: out of interest, a quick google image search shows Su-27's mostly carrying the R-27ER, R-27ET and R-73. Can't find any images of Flankers or variants thereof carrying the R-77 until you get to the Su-30 / 35 / 37. Interesting...

The VKS didn't stock many (if any) R-77's. Their main missile is still the R-27 (non-E), but as you probably know, they have actual (not advertising material) replacements on the design board.

Interesting. From available sources it looks like TRV, which incorporated Vympel at some point, is researching at least one and possibly two different mid-life upgrades for the R-77, not including export models, but none of the information from what might be considered to be the more reliable sources (Aviation Week etc.) seems to be more recent than ~2010.

It's also interesting to speculate on why the VVS / PVO / VKS never fielded the R-77 in large numbers. I'd guess that if anything it would be unexpectedly poor seeker head performance, as it's this rather than the aerodynamic configuration of the missile that seems to feature in most of the upgrade stories I've found.

I suppose I've strayed far off topic here... :doh:

I think for political and financial reasons they've decided to skip the R77 altogether now and focus on new RVV MD/BD/SD missiles.

Thanks guys

I think for political and financial reasons they've decided to skip the R77 altogether now and focus on new RVV MD/BD/SD missiles.

That would make perfect sense. Looks like Vympel started the R-77 upgrade program in the 90's, just when the financial collapse hit in Russia. It'll be interesting to see photos of what the PAK-FA is carrying, if and when they become available.

Slightly on-topic, it's worth noting that SARH missiles aren't necessarily bad in the Pk department: I remember speaking to an RAF type years ago who had taken part in the trials of the Sky Flash SARH missile that was used on the early fighter versions of the Tornado. He said that the RAF and BAE had conducted testing of the missile guidance in all sorts of horrible conditions and that it achieved hits when nobody believed it could. Of course he wouldn't go in to specifics but he was adamant that the missile would have performed very well had it ever been called on in anger. I gather the same was true of late versions of the AIM-7. I winder if there's an issue with the way the R-27R/ER family behaves in-game at the moment.

The missile is a system. The platform makes up a good part of the Pk.

That would make perfect sense. Looks like Vympel started the R-77 upgrade program in the 90's, just when the financial collapse hit in Russia.

And the fact that they were manufactured in Ukraine.

I winder if there's an issue with the way the R-27R/ER family behaves in-game at the moment.

Chaff, ground clutter, and lethargy at final intercept. But thats for another thread.