DCS Mirage 2000C Discussion

Last picture of the week. The radar screen now has most of its elements. Next step is target selection for TWS (Track While Search) and STT (Single Target Track).

 

By the way, the image is not blurry. There are two tracks so close to each other that they were masking themselves into a single one. Just like in real life.

Very fast work!

We are in first row looking at DCS radar revolution in action. :D

Thanks for posting, it is very nice to see your progress! :)

Very nice to see the progress on the radar. Thanks!

Woot! :pilotfly:

How about the flight model? Is it finished? You didn't mention it on your to-do list.

Very fast work!

Not really. The graphic interface is relatively fast, but making the radar work was hard. Lots of false starts and CTDs.

Woot! :pilotfly:

 

How about the flight model? Is it finished? You didn't mention it on your to-do list.

The flight model is not in my work schedule. Another team member is responsible for it.

Not really. The graphic interface is relatively fast, but making the radar work was hard. Lots of false starts and CTDs.

Thanks for clarification.

Good luck with this! Can't wait to fly it.

Not really. The graphic interface is relatively fast, but making the radar work was hard. Lots of false starts and CTDs.

As a brazilian who saw the M-2000C thundering through our skies, I can't wait to buy it.

Looking really, really good, guys. Very much looking forward to this module.

Thanks for posting the WIP shots! As echoed by many, really looking forward to this module. Great work gents.

Never even seen a static display of any Mirage aircraft, but still really looking forwards to this one. Thanks for the update.

Question to the devs: Can we expect the same custom sounds found in the Fsx version in DCS as well? I found that the warning sound and engine sounds are really good in the version already released.

The way I'm looking at it is comparing the MiG-21 to the F-15. The MiG just can't handle the fire and forget, or the sheer range alone. The Mirage doesn't have fire and forget, and its ranged missiles are much shorter. So while in BVR it still holds an advantage, it's not nearly as bad as having to fight the F-15. Also, in close, the Mirage bleeds speed pretty badly, it'll be a very different kind of fight than the SU-27s and F-15s are used to, something more in line with the MiG-21s level.

 

A more perfect analogue is the F-5E, but we have no idea how long that module will take, if it's an actual module at all and not just Wags pulling everyone's tail.

Guys...this is not DCS Mirage III C here, this is Mirage 2000 C RDI ! MiG-21 or F-5E are no match for Mirage 2000...excepted if outnumbered.

Yes it's true the Mirage 2000 can bleed speed fast if you pull hard, especially at high altitude. Yet it is much more powerful than Mirage III.

A French Mirage 2000 D pilot, Marc Scheffler wrote a book.

During its very first flight on Mirage 2000 B, with M53-5 engine (less powerful than M53-P2 simulated here) its instructor performed the following demonstration:

2000 ft, 350 kts : he performed a 360° turn at 9G in full AB.

At the end of the turn the Mirage had accelerated to 500 kts.

After that the instructor extended air brake to quickly slow down to 350 ktss...and the author had to puke :D

In dogfight Mirage 2000 can challenge any fighter of its generation (F-15, F-16, MiG 29...).

In BVR the radar is quite good, but the system is limited to Fox 1 & Fox 2 weapons.

Fox 1 : The Super 530 D has similar range to AIM-7M and R-27R, but it is fatser:

This missile, with its unusual fin configuration, was capable of outflying any other air-to-air missile of its day with the sole exception of the Phoenix. Its Butalane composite propellant rapidly accelerates this missile to an incredible Mach 4.5, and sustains this speed for four seconds until burnout.

The Mirage 2000 C RDI has integrated counter measure system (RWR + Jammer + chaff/ flare). Jammer is missing to MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-29A and F-5E. RWR is easier to read than Russian ones.

For radar range:

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983%20-%200550.html

 

RDI uses a higher pulse-repetition frequency for its dedicated interception role.

Maximum clear-air range against a head-on fighter target is about 66 n.m., but the RDI's major performance improvement compared with RDM is when looking down. Here, range is between 18 n.m. and 50 n.m., depending on closing speed and degree of clutter.

So bigger target (F-15, MiG-29 or Su-27) might be detected from greater range.

The Mirage 2000 C RDI has integrated counter measure system (RWR + Jammer + chaff/ flare). Jammer is missing to MiG-21, MiG-23, MiG-29A and F-5E. RWR is easier to read than Russian ones.

Is there any documentation on what the rwr system on the mirage looks like?

Is there any documentation on what the rwr system on the mirage looks like?

The best I have is that :

Guys...this is not DCS Mirage III C here, this is Mirage 2000 C RDI ! MiG-21 or F-5E are no match for Mirage 2000...excepted if outnumbered.

They use F-5Es against F-15s and F-16s in Red Flag Exercises for dissimilar dog fighting. The 5 is very light and very agile, so is the Mig21 for that matter, an unloaded 21 can just about keep up with the F-16. Maybe in BVR the 2000 would have an edge, because of its onboard Jammer and superior Radar. But in WVR the F-5E would be more then a match for it, and a modern Mig-21 Bison could easily give it a run for its money in BVR. with TWS and R-77s

They use F-5Es against F-15s and F-16s in Red Flag Exercises for dissimilar dog fighting. The 5 is very light and very agile, so is the Mig21 for that matter, an unloaded 21 can just about keep up with the F-16. Maybe in BVR the 2000 would have an edge, because of its onboard Jammer and superior Radar. But in WVR the F-5E would be more then a match for it, and a modern Mig-21 Bison could easily give it a run for its money in BVR. with TWS and R-77s

This kind of training is called DACT : Dissimilar Air Combat Training.

The F-5E is used to simulate the MiG-21 and train pilot to face a light weight fighter if the combat goes south.

In France they do it with Alpha Jet Vs Mirage 2000.

All this is about is using proper tactic.

But DACT is not really the same thing as real battle.

Occasionally MiG-21 can success with ambush tactics or that sort of things, but an average pilot in Mirage 2000 will perform better than average pilot in MiG-21.

All the point is to bring the fight in your arena. Mirage III more than prove its worth against MiG-21 in gun fight. Mirage 2000 is way better...

An unloaded MiG-21 won't go very far or fight a long time, and unloaded Mirage 2000 is a beast too :smilewink:

You forgot one thing : Mirage 2000 is still a light fighter, 7500 kg empty.

MiG-21 Bison is anecdotic in MiG-21 family...is it simulated in DCS ?

I could answer with Mirage 2000-5 Fox 3 shooter, but this is off topic.

The proper tactic is to keep your energy up against enemies that are faster and lighter. but the instantaneous turning performance and high AoA performance is without a doubt better in the F-5 and marginally better in the mig 21. The delta Wing is the problem not thrust or weight. In a dogfight the mirage is disadvantaged at lower speeds.

F-5E

http://www.avialogs.com/viewer/avialogs-documentviewer.php?id=4064

P412

360kts/ M0.58 = 21°/S & 7.3G @ 5000 ft/ 13600 lbs with 2 x AIM-9. Full fuel without missile is ~15000lbs

What has been estimated for Mirage 2000 (real data are still classified) and used in Metal2Mesh product :

M0.6/ 25°/s & 9G @ 5000ft/ 23500 lbs (no store, full fuel).

Before you pretend it is over-optimistic, think about the pilot report in Mirage 2000 B who was accelerating at 9G from 350kts @ 2000ft, it was the end of the flight and the aircraft was probably 4400 lbs lighter.

Yes it's a delta wing, but with relaxed stability, fly by wire and auto SLAT. Max AoA is 29°.

you can't corner in it at low speed, and I'll believe 29 degrees when I see it.

The issue is the control surfaces can't move the the fighter efficiently enough. when you try and pitch into corners the delta wing basically turns into a big air brake and you lose energy speed too rapidly meaning you get maybe one or two good turns at high G and Alpha before you need to think about rebuilding your energy, where as the F-5E can SUSTAIN turns much better not just make them. Because the wings are straighter and longer and the tips of the wings help you maintain control at low speeds better and don't get into stall conditions as easily. There's a reason most fighters are designed with a blended body not a full delta. The Mirage has to have fly by wire otherwise it would be too hard to fly let alone fight with. pulling 9G to turn 360 is easy for most western jets at 350kts but try that at 200 or 250kts and see what happens. Besides that how hard you can turn is irreverent its how long it takes you to turn and how tightly is what matters.

Watch any red Flag fights and the F-15s never get into a turning fight with the F-5s at least when they wanna win. The way you have to fight it is the same way you have to fight with the Mig21 you have to use your bigger and better clime rate and energy (i.e. hi and low yos yos ect), the same would especially be true with the Mirage. But if you play the migs game and get too low and slow your dead, every time the same is true with the F-5.

2000 ft, 350 kts : he performed a 360° turn at 9G in full AB.

At the end of the turn the Mirage had accelerated to 500 kts

Not physically possible.

After that the instructor extended air brake to quickly slow down to 350 ktss...and the author had to puke :D

Poor Author. But really, a barrel roll will get you slow much faster.

In dogfight Mirage 2000 can challenge any fighter of its generation (F-15, F-16, MiG 29...).

Sort of. The EM diagrams tell an interesting story, and they make the M2000C with that engine maybe on par.

http://www.flightglobal.com/pdfarchive/view/1983/1983%20-%200550.html

Usually the reference for this kind of claim is a 5m² RCS target, which is roughly a F-16/ Mirage 2000 with weapons and fuel tanks.

So bigger target (F-15, MiG-29 or Su-27) might be detected from greater range.

How do you know how big a target in terms of RCS an M2000C is? Size doesn't exactly have anything to do with it.

you can't corner in it at low speed, and I'll believe 29 degrees when I see it.

 

The issue is the control surfaces can't move the the fighter efficiently enough. when you try and pitch into corners the delta wing basically turns into a big air brake and you lose energy speed too rapidly meaning you get maybe one or two good turns at high G and Alpha before you need to think about rebuilding your energy, where as the F-5E can SUSTAIN turns much better not just make them.

360kts is low speed ??? Corner speed is the lowest speed at which you can pool maximum G, which give you best INSTANTANEOUS turn rate. Off course you're bleeding speed. But any aircraft does it at corner speed.

For the rest you're right, after you need to rebuild energy, but it's true for F-5E too.

You asked for INSTANTANEOUS :

The proper tactic is to keep your energy up against enemies that are faster and lighter. but the instantaneous turning performance and high AoA performance is without a doubt better in the F-5 and marginally better in the mig 21. The delta Wing is the problem not thrust or weight. In a dogfight the mirage is disadvantaged at lower speeds.

You want SUSTAINED turn rate ?

5000 ft, we are at low atltitude

Mirage 2000 : 14°/s Mach 0.7

F-5E : 13°/s Mach 0.72

and I'll believe 29 degrees when I see it.

Early Mirage 2000 C RDM flight manual p51

http://www.avialogs.com/viewer/avialogs-documentviewer.php?id=1879

limitation de l'incidence vers 27° pour 100kt et 29° ailleurs.

= AoA is limited to 27° at 100 kt and 29° elsewhere (understand above).

Here is Mirage 2000 C solo display training threw the HUD, sorry old video, but at least you can see speed & G but not AoA.

bipbipbipbipbipbip is max AoA warning.

https://youtu.be/aytcwZ75Akk

Display from the outside, but I don't know if it's the same routine, each pilot had its own :