What are the differences between the BF109, Dora, Pony?

What are the differences between the BF109, Dora, Pony?

I read from several sources that the FW190 was a more modern and better combat plane than the BF109, but a quick look at wikipedia for performance statistics and the BF appears to be able to fly faster, climb faster and fly higher and carry larger weapons than the Dora.

Also how does the pony compare to the other two?

The FW190 was seen as modern due to it's mechanical computer controlling all the functions of the engine using just 1 leaver and the electrically driven systems which are ergonomically laid out. Compare the 109 and P51 (or really any other prop plane of that era) cockpits and the 190's is both simple and accessible. No big trim wheels or having to manage several different leavers to control the engine. Less head down time etc.

And don't foret the more advanved gunsight of the FW-190 compared to the BF-109. It calculates lead which is not the case in the fixed BF-109 gunsight. I think he P-51s gunsight also calculates lead but I'm not sure since I haven't flown it so far.

The 109 was more comparable to the spitfires (light and maneuverable, but not as much range) and the 190 was more comparable to American fighters (heavier armour, longer range, higher altitude)

And don't foret the more advanved gunsight of the FW-190 compared to the BF-109. It calculates lead which is not the case in the fixed BF-109 gunsight.

But the lead computing gunsight is not worth very much when combined with the 190's forward visibility. Deflection shooting is very, very limited.

The 109 was more comparable to the spitfires (light and maneuverable, but not as much range) and the 190 was more comparable to American fighters (heavier armour, longer range, higher altitude)

The 190 has similar range to the 109. Also, 109 is better at high altitude then 190. Fw190 is better at low-mid altitude range. Heavier armour... it had armour around the pilot and in the egine and Jabo versions even had armour in wings. 190 is good at high speeds, easy to take off and land (when compared to 109).

And don't foret the more advanved gunsight of the FW-190 compared to the BF-109. It calculates lead which is not the case in the fixed BF-109 gunsight. I think he P-51s gunsight also calculates lead but I'm not sure since I haven't flown it so far.

The gunsight we have in DCS is a rare find and I only handful of planes had them. They mostly had the same Gunsight as the 109

Basically if you compare 190D9 and 109K4 you come up with this:

Speed:

low alt: 190

med alt: 190 a little bit better

high alt: 109

turning circle:109

instantaneous turn: 190

level acceleration: 109

high speed handling:190

low speed handling:109

visibility:190

Firepower:... can't say. D9 has better Anit Fighter weapons due to 20mm MG151/20 with better balistics, but 109 has more hard hitting but slow and with a lot of bullet drop, MK108

Dive: 190

Climb:109

Range: P-51 :P ( draw for 109 & 190 here)

Versatility: 190 It was adopted as Jabo in almost all versions and some were even made specifically for that kind of mission (Fw190F and G)

Both were easy to manufacture.

Did I miss anything?

Did I miss anything?

FW is easier to be flown in cases when flying by the book is the only way known. In others words, FW is a bit more noob friendly than BF flying (not combat) wise. FW has wider lading gear, rear wheel lock by stick, and its trim does not change much with changing speed.

FW is easier to be flown in cases when flying by the book is the only way known. In others words, FW is a bit more noob friendly than BF flying (not combat) wise. FW has wider lading gear, rear wheel lock by stick, and its trim does not change much with changing speed.

Oh yeah. :) Thx

Now P-51 vs both.

Range is it's only realy advantage.

At low fuel loads it can out-turn the 190.

At high speed it can outroll the 109 and it can outdive the 109 and probably outzoom the 109. It also turns better at high speeds than 109, but that advantage disapprears pretty fast with drop in speed during turning.

At high altitude it is faster than 190 but slower than 109.

109 is Batman and 190 is Robin. You must a crafty Joker to beat them both:book:

Firepower:... can't say. D9 has better Anit Fighter weapons due to 20mm MG151/20 with better balistics, but 109 has more hard hitting but slow and with a lot of bullet drop, MK108

If we had an A6 or especially the A8, it would have obscene hitting power. Only a Tempest V and 262 have similar weight of firepower.

Outstanding question! To many propeller aircraft looks very similar. They sure are not. I believe those living in that era could really see the differences just like us from the jet era can tell the difference between an F-86 and an F-18. My fav so far is the Dora. For me it seems like you give a little power and she does not want to stay on the ground in any way. It actually feels like you have to force her to land.

Wait, wasn't the 190 always hailed as the best fighter of that war?

The best WW2-fighter in general? Don't think so, but for sure one of the best and maybe the best in certain things like ergonomy (early HOTAS concept, easy push-button controls) for example.

Actually it was always praised by historians as the best German plane. Even though 109 had much better k/d

What happens to that K/D ratio if you remove the top 20 Luftwaffe aces with their enormous kill tallies, many of which were extremely large before the 190 ever entered service? I would suspect things even out a little.

You have to look a little deeper as to why various ranking members of the Luftwaffe preferred the 190 over the 109 and wanted 109 production cut.

You have to look a little deeper as to why various ranking members of the Luftwaffe preferred the 190 over the 109 and wanted 109 production cut.

The short answer to that is Messerschmitt Me 262. ;)

The FW-190 D-9 was a great example of fighter design.

It's cockpit was laid out very well - ergonomic, user friendly.

The Bediengerat device took throttle input and barometric condition measures to optimise and automate engine/propeller function (magneto timing, propeller pitch, fuel mixture and RPM)

Taking those tasks away from pilots afforded them advantages:

1. More time looking outside the aircraft

2. Reduced distraction in combat/emergency situations

3. Increased ease of use facilitating increased successful pilot training/conversion

The Dora also had some armour which again gives the pilot greater safety and survivability. While losing planes was bad, losing trained and combat capable pilots was worse.

Some of the Dora's were equipped with the EZ-42 gunsight allowing lead prediction of targets with the appropriate input for wing diameter and distance. While potentially a "big deal" I believe that more often than not they were fitted with standard deflection sights.

The K-4 was certainly the pinnacle of the BF-109 series, it saw limited action though then the Dora so if we are comparing variants we have more info on the Dora and far less on the K-4. If we generally compare the 109 with the 190 series the 109 had more kills. Factors influencing this include aircraft availability, pilot familiarity with their craft, opponent technology/aircraft etc.. All that sides with the 109 - it was flown much longer by many more pilots and against much weaker opposition. By the time the 190 came up we were starting to see the marked increase in allied airpower.

Some see the Dora as a "nOOb" craft which is a derogatory generalisation given that it was built for combat and it took away a lot of restrictions/blocks towards that exact goal.

I do believe that Adolf Galland said that for him the 109 series was the best of the war as it "fit like a glove".

For those who speak German (or can live with Google translate), its worth the time to read through the German point of view between the 109 and 190. While its an early 190A going through its teething troubles period compared to the matured 109F, a good number of observations were valid for the whole series.

E`Stelle Rechlin - Vergleichsfliegen zwischen Bf 109 F 4 und FW 190 A 2.

http://kurfurst.org/Tactical_trials/109F4_Rechlin_vergleich_190A2/109F_Rvergleichsflg_190A2_de.html

The FW-190 D-9 was a great example of fighter design.

 

It's cockpit was laid out very well - ergonomic, user friendly.

 

The Bediengerat device took throttle input and barometric condition measures to optimise and automate engine/propeller function (magneto timing, propeller pitch, fuel mixture and RPM)

 

Taking those tasks away from pilots afforded them advantages:

 

1. More time looking outside the aircraft

2. Reduced distraction in combat/emergency situations

3. Increased ease of use facilitating increased successful pilot training/conversion

 

The Dora also had some armour which again gives the pilot greater safety and survivability. While losing planes was bad, losing trained and combat capable pilots was worse.

 

Some of the Dora's were equipped with the EZ-42 gunsight allowing lead prediction of targets with the appropriate input for wing diameter and distance. While potentially a "big deal" I believe that more often than not they were fitted with standard deflection sights.

 

The K-4 was certainly the pinnacle of the BF-109 series, it saw limited action though then the Dora so if we are comparing variants we have more info on the Dora and far less on the K-4. If we generally compare the 109 with the 190 series the 109 had more kills. Factors influencing this include aircraft availability, pilot familiarity with their craft, opponent technology/aircraft etc.. All that sides with the 109 - it was flown much longer by many more pilots and against much weaker opposition. By the time the 190 came up we were starting to see the marked increase in allied airpower.

 

Some see the Dora as a "nOOb" craft which is a derogatory generalisation given that it was built for combat and it took away a lot of restrictions/blocks towards that exact goal.

 

I do believe that Adolf Galland said that for him the 109 series was the best of the war as it "fit like a glove".

To me 190 is just harder to be good in as the turn rate is worse and low speed handling. There must have been a reason why 109 were taking on escort while 190 went for bombers. In 109 u just have to spot the enemy and turn into him. Only spitfire and Yak3 are better at that. So it is really easy to fight in. If 2 noobs one in 190 and second in 109 met. The109 noob would win.

I like how Kurt Tank explained it: the Spitfire and 109 were thoroughbreds, while the 190 was a cavalry horse.

On the other hand, everyone says that the Sopwith Camel was the most successful scout of WW1 because it shot down the most aircraft, ergo the 109 is the most successful fighter of WW2.:music_whistling:

I like how Kurt Tank explained it: the Spitfire and 109 were thoroughbreds, while the 190 was a cavalry horse.

 

On the other hand, everyone says that the Sopwith Camel was the most successful scout of WW1 because it shot down the most aircraft, ergo the 109 is the most successful fighter of WW2.:music_whistling:

*cough*Hellcat *cough*

While i am very new in DCS, i know a lot about planes, especially WW2. I have several books, mostly in german (cause i am german), and i read pretty much every biography from the famous german aces. A few assumptions i read so far in this topic are not entirely right - there is a difference between the Anton and the Dora, and a lot of the assumptions i read in this topic belong to the Anton, but not so much to the Dora.

To understand the strengths of the Dora it's important to know, why it was built, first of all. The Dora pretty much the german direct counter to the american p51. When the P51(D) came to europe in bigger numbers, it was the first plane to really outclass the G6. (yes, there were a few other planes, which where better in certain attributes, but G6 could always use her own strengths to turn the tide. With the Mustang it changed, the P51 was better in high speed manouvering, had a better energy retention and had more performance at high altitude, and also better divespeed, so pretty much all the attributes the germans used against their enemies till that point. How the fight was set up there high over the clouds, the G6 did poor against the mustang. With the G14AS (and later the G10,also K4) it became better, but it's weaknesses (bad high speed manouverability and divespeed) stayed, and they couldn't be solved. So the Germans analyzed the Mustang precisely, and built a plane, which countered (and outclassed) the Mustang in it's particular strengths. The Dora. Very good high speed manouverabilty (slightly better then Mustang), better role at all speeds - read an interesting article from a german (ace) pilot, who explained, that the Mustang literally couldn't get a shot at him, even if it was on his 6, because everytime the Mustang came close to a shooting position, the Dora could just do a 90-270° role and evade out of his sight, where the Mustang just couldn't follow (of course only in 1v1 situations). Dora is also even better in a dive, and matches the Mustang in climb rate and energy retention. So in the hands of a proper pilots, the Dora was slightly better then the Mustang in the common combat situations, and probably the best mass produced(!) propeller fighter in the war(Ta152 even better). Of course it wouldn't be wise, to take a Dora into a dogfight against a Yak3 at low altitude. So it's not easy to elect "the best", i think you have to look at the environment, before choosing a favourite.

The K4 had still all the 109 weaknesses like explained above, but it had one significant advantage over the Mustang, the climbrate. Read about numerois occasions, where outnumbered german pilots just hit the Mw50, went into a steep climb, and evaded the Mustangs in this way. But this is the only real advantage.

In normal combat situations the Dora covered the better armed german fighters like the 190 Anton and the 109, who were supposed to attack the bombers. Dora however provided cover for them, and were supposed to engage and detract the Mustangs from attacking the less performing Anton and 109s.

Dora was in contrary to the Anton only very rarely used as Jabo, it was just to valuable for those tasks - but of course, due to the low german numbers of planes and pilots at the end of the war, every german plane had to be able to execute a large spectrum of tasks, so the Dora.

But after all it's up to the pilot - and using the strenghts of their planes properly. If you are more a high speed junkie take the Dora..if you are more a turn and burn aerial cavalier, using slow speed hammerheads, the Kurfürst is just your thing!

Wait, wasn't the 190 always hailed as the best fighter of that war?

Capt. Eric Brown rated the FW-190D9 as the number two fighter of the war.

IIRC....

1. Spitfire Mk XIV

2. FW-190D9

3. P-51D

His evaluation was based on aircraft performance and handling. There are other ways to measure a fighters success.

If we judged them on impact on the war.....the Dora had no influence at all as did the Spitfire Mk XIV. The P-51 had a much larger impact just based on the fact it could reach places no other fighter could get too.

Which is where the P-51 won the war crowd!!

Capt. Eric Brown rated the FW-190D9 as the number two fighter of the war.

 

IIRC....

 

1. Spitfire Mk XIV

 

2. FW-190D9

 

3. P-51D

 

His evaluation was based on aircraft performance and handling. There are other ways to measure a fighters success.

 

If we judged them on impact on the war.....the Dora had no influence at all as did the Spitfire Mk XIV. The P-51 had a much larger impact just based on the fact it could reach places no other fighter could get too.

Which is where the P-51 won the war crowd!!

the best fighter of the war was definitely the 262

It has been a while since I read Eric Browns assessment but I think he did not rate the Me262. I think he put it in a class by itself which I tend to agree. It belongs to a different age.

I agree with the "different class" (still a fighter though), but definitely not a different age. 262 saw frontline action before the Dora or the K4.

Anyway...i hope this bird will make it to DCS soon..but the server hosts will have to elaborate a system to limit them..otherwise you won't see much else flying around :huh: