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How it works the polar coordinate system in the nadir ?


edineygomes

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Guys, i figured out how it works!

 

Ramsay, your first clue was right, but you forgot one important point. :smartass:

 

What we get, if we look at the lat long lines is the VARIATION (also called declination). It's the difference between magnetic and geographic north. If you measure the lat long lines it gives you a variation of 4-9 degrees in the caucasus map, depending on your location (about 4° in the western part, about 9° in the eastern part of the map. To do that, just follow a lat long (NOT MGRS) line nearby your a/c location to the north. You'll get a heading of e.g. 355° which basically means a variation of 5° (360° - 355°) to magnetic north.

 

NOW the Nadir gives you the DEVIATION and not the declination! The deviation is a magnetic compass error caused by local magnetic field differences of the earth. On the caucasus map it's somewhere between 6.0° to 6.3°.

 

Now the simple clue to really get the right coordinates of your tgt is just to add both numbers (as we allready did somehow - with a little bit of luck).

 

E.g. 7° variation + 6.1° = 13.1°

 

If we put that in your formula it nails the tgt right on spot!

 

How to get these numbers? Simple! Just measure the lat/long lines during a mission at your a/c location using the F10 menu and the measurement tool (as described above). Now just look at the deviation in the nadir and sum up the numbers. Then proceed along with the formula...

 

After figuring out that the UTM method didn't work out (well obviously only where the lat/long and utm lines met) i tried this method and it worked everywhere and everytime.

 

Hope, it wasn't too difficult to understand. If so, just ask and i try to provide some screenshots and further explanation.

 

837597946_DCSVariation.jpg.3b5f2de22db80946301f3c19fc11d7f4.jpg


Edited by exil
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Guys, i figured out how it works!

 

Ramsay, your first clue was right, but you forgot one important point. :smartass:

 

What we get, if we look at the lat long lines is the VARIATION (also called declination). It's the difference between magnetic and geographic north. If you measure the lat long lines it gives you a variation of 4-9 degrees in the caucasus map, depending on your location (about 4° in the western part, about 9° in the eastern part of the map. To do that, just follow a lat long (NOT MGRS) line nearby your a/c location to the north. You'll get a heading of e.g. 355° which basically means a variation of 5° (360° - 355°) to magnetic north.

 

NOW the Nadir gives you the DEVIATION and not the declination! The deviation is a magnetic compass error caused by local magnetic field differences of the earth. On the caucasus map it's somewhere between 6.0° to 6.3°.

 

Now the simple clue to really get the right coordinates of your tgt is just to add both numbers (as we allready did somehow - with a little bit of luck).

 

E.g. 7° variation + 6.1° = 13.1°

 

If we put that in your formula it nails the tgt right on spot!

 

How to get these numbers? Simple! Just measure the lat/long lines during a mission at your a/c location using the F10 menu and the measurement tool (as described above). Now just look at the deviation in the nadir and sum up the numbers. Then proceed along with the formula...

 

After figuring out that the UTM method didn't work out (well obviously only where the lat/long and utm lines met) i tried this method and it worked everywhere and everytime.

 

Hope, it wasn't too difficult to understand. If so, just ask and i try to provide some screenshots and further explanation.

 

[ATTACH]145082[/ATTACH]

 

 

 

The difference between magnetic North an True north is called declination. Some also say deviation and use them interchangeably. I have to account for declination when I'm installing a directional antenna on a tower ( such as a point to point dish) and I use a magnetic compass. Wouldn't need to with a GPS alignment tool. I believe the map correction comes from taking a round surface and putting it on a flat map.

 

So when I was using the NADIR declination of 6.4 and the incorrect map correction of +7 I was too far East. Using the 10.6 you told me hit the target because it was almost like using a declination correction of 6.6 and map correction of 4. Maybe just using the NADIR declination and 4 map correction would work. I haven't tested in the Gazelle but the further East or West you travel the higher and lower your declination should be.

 

 

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Also like you said range will play a large factor. If you are close to the maximum range of 15000m of the Gazelle's laser, + or - a half a degree off on either map correction or magnetic declination is going to make you further off than if you were 5000m from your target.

 

 

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Hope, it wasn't too difficult to understand. If so, just ask and i try to provide some screenshots and further explanation.

I'm not sure I understand your explanation.

 

This diagram explains how I understand things

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=145099&stc=1&d=1469497566

 

It seems to work well for the F10 Map (+/- 20m).

 

The Gazelle.

The NADIR has a display accuracy of 0.1', so

 


  • the best I can do for the starting location is +/- 0.05' = +/- 90m without taking additional errors introduced by inertial drift, conversion to/from UTM, etc. into account.
  • The same +/- 90m error margin is there when the NADIR displays the answer.
  • Data entry of 10m UTM coordinates are rounded to an internal value - perhaps +/- 50m?

Viviane Accuracy

 


  • Measurement of the target bearing is +/- 1° (Viviane +/- 0.5° relative to the body, plus helicopter bearing +/- 0.5°)
  • Laser ranging to the target agrees with F10 map measurements and/or is well within positional accuracy i.e. +/- 10m

Hence, I only expect an accuracy of +/- 0.1' (+/- 180m) when limiting myself to using the Gazelle's compass, NADIR and Viviane camera.

 

Off course most of the time the errors cancel or aren't as big.

275696327_VivianetoNADIRMGRSGazelle.jpg.dc52574790f9786681183fbbea81818c.jpg


Edited by Ramsay
Update diagram, inc. angular measurement error

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How it works the polar coordinate system in the nadir ?

 

I'm not sure I understand your explanation.

 

This diagram explains how I understand things

 

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=145094&stc=1&d=1469489517

 

It seems to work well for the F10 Map (+/- 20m).

 

The Gazelle.

The NADIR display has a display accuracy of 0.1', so the best I can do for the starting location is +/- 0.05' = +/- 90m without taking additional errors introduced by inertial drift, conversion to/from UTC, etc. into account.

 

The same +/- 90m error margin is there when the NADIR displays the answer.

 

Hence, I only expect an accuracy of +/- 0.1' (+/- 180m) when limiting myself to using the Gazelle's compass, NADIR and Viviane camera.

 

Off course most of the time the errors cancel and aren't as big.

 

 

 

Just out of curiosity, does the map correction come from display a sphere on a flat surface than using UTM grids overlaying that?

 

On a side note I first thought you meant + or - 0.1 foot ( 0.1) but now realize you meant + or - .1 minute.

 

 

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Just out of curiosity, does the map correction come from display a sphere on a flat surface than using UTM grids overlaying that?

That's how I'm treating it but I'm not sure why it is the way it is.

 

Note: I need to edit my diagram as I was referring to the F10 map when annotating and it has a 1 metre resolution rather than the 10 metre resolution of the Gazelle (need to add what the NADIR displays).


Edited by Ramsay

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I guess another variable that may throw off accuracy could be the helicopters altitude in relation to the target assuming the laser range finder is finding angle distance directly to the target and not doing any computing of helicopters altitude. So if I was reading 5000m away at 10m altitude my indicated range should increase if I was say at 2000m altitude in the same spot. Not sure how much. I guess you could use a similar formula using your radar altitude and slant range to target to find your ground distance to target then use that in the other formula.

 

I need to sleep, I may be over thinking this

 

 

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I'm not sure I understand your explanation.

 

This diagram explains how I understand things

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=145099&stc=1&d=1469497566

 

It seems to work well for the F10 Map (+/- 20m).

 

The Gazelle.

The NADIR display has a display accuracy of 0.1', so the best I can do for the starting location is +/- 0.05' = +/- 90m without taking additional errors introduced by inertial drift, conversion to/from UTM, etc. into account.

 

The same +/- 90m error margin is there when the NADIR displays the answer.

 

Hence, I only expect an accuracy of +/- 0.1' (+/- 180m) when limiting myself to using the Gazelle's compass, NADIR and Viviane camera.

 

Off course most of the time the errors cancel or aren't as big.

 

Okay, i'll try but please be patient with me since english is not my mother language ;)

 

Imagine you are south of the geographic northpole (where all the lat/long lines are meeting in the north) and your plan is to fly there.

If you simply fly heading 360° you'll miss the northpole and end up at the magnetic northpole since a compass heading with 360° will allways show you directions to magnetic north. This is what we call declination (see wikipedia).

 

The sollution is to add 5° in our example to counter the missleading 5° declenation. Your compass reading then would be 005° (360° + 5° declination).

 

Now the earth itself has different local magnetic fields in different strength. This effect influences your compass additionally. This is called deviation (see wikipedia). This is exactly what you're reading when you look at the dev page in the nadir.

 

Now let's say the local deviation is 10°. If we only correct our heading by 5° declination we would still end up 10° to the left of the geographic northpole since we didn't correct our compass deviation error. So we would also "miss" the geografic northpole because your compass will again misslead you by 10°.

 

So in order to reach the geografic northpole, you basically have to head to 015° (360° + 5° declination + 10° deviation).

 

Okay, now how do we use this information in order to solve our problem:

The heading information you see on tv screen in the gazelles vivianne sight are provided by the same gyros that are supplying the compass...together with all the mentioned errors!

So basically you need to correct that in the same manner as in our little example.

 

Why did it then work in my example with the 10.6° correction factor?

Easy! It was just a lucky shot. The nadirs deviation at Batumi is 6°. The declination in that region (simply follow a lat/long to the north) is about 5°. If you sum that up you'll get 11° as a correction factor which is pretty close to 10.6°

 

Hope, it get a bit clearer now.

 

Nevertheless, it really doesn't matter that much, since the MGRS gridlines and that lat/long lines differ about 1-2° on the map. But the more accurate way will be using the declination of the lat/long lines.

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Okay, i'll try but please be patient with me since english is not my mother language ;)

 

The sollution is to add 5° in our example to counter the missleading 5° declenation. Your compass reading then would be 005° (360° + 5° declination).

 

Hi, I'll try to explain your error

 

In the Caucasus map when the magnetic compass reads 0°, it is actually pointing +6° E True.

 

 

220px-Magnetic_declination.svg.png

 

TRUE HEADING = MAGNETIC HEADING + 6° E

 

So to fly towards the geographic pole we need to fly a magnetic heading of

 

MAG = TRUE - 6° = 360° - 6° = 354°


Edited by Ramsay

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Hi, I'll try to explain your error

 

In the Caucasus map when the magnetic compass reads 0°, it is actually pointing +6° E True.

 

 

220px-Magnetic_declination.svg.png

 

TRUE HEADING = MAGNETIC HEADING + 6° E

 

So to fly towards the geographic pole we need to fly a magnetic heading of

 

MAG = TRUE - 6° = 360° - 6° = 354°

 

I know what you're trying to point out here, but we don't want to figure out the magnetic heading.

 

What we try to do is to get a magnetic heading corrected to a true heading (not true to mag) so we are able to fix a tgt on a map (since coordinates and maps are oriented to true north). In this case you have to ADD the declination.

 

TRUE = MAG + DECL (6°E)

TRUE = 360° + (+6°) = 006°

 

If it were 6° W you still have to add the declination but with a negativ key signature:

 

TRUE = MAG + DECL (6°W)

TRUE = 360° + (-6°) = 354°

 

Also google "declination/variation add subtract rule" or read it in this part of the wikipedia article.


Edited by exil

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I know what you're trying to point out here, but we don't want to figure out the magnetic heading.

 

What we try to do is to get a magnetic heading corrected to a true heading (not true to mag) so we are able to fix a tgt on a map (since coordinates and maps are oriented to true north). In this case you have to ADD the declination.

 

TRUE = MAG + DECL (6°E)

TRUE = 360° + (+6°) = 006°

 

If it were 6° W you still have to add the declination but with a negativ key signature:

 

TRUE = MAG + DECL (6°W)

TRUE = 360° + (-6°) = 354°

 

Also google "declination/variation add subtract rule" or read it in this part of the wikipedia article.

 

 

 

He's saying the same thing above. To calculate where true North is while using a magnetic compass you have to account for the deviation of magnetic North from True North. This is called declination or variation. I think where you may be mixing things up is the UTM grids and lat and long lines. On the f10 map the terrain is oriented to true north. However the UTM grids are not in the same direction. They deviate from the flat maps true north 4 degrees west. so this is where the map correction of adding another 4 degrees in addition to the magnetic declination comes in play for UTM. 7 degrees when using lat and long lines on the f10 map that is oriented to true north.

 

Image1469574484.909082.jpg.4c106cfde5395ce7e3094f4f90d99f65.jpg

 

I believe this maybe from taking a rounded grid and overlaying it on a flat map oriented to true north on our displays.

 

 

 

 

 

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I guess to illustrate the difference in the grids to the f10 map use the mission editor ruler and run North at a heading of 0 degrees then look where your grid lines are. Your grid lines should be a reference to true north but they are not.

 

 

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  • 4 weeks later...

Thanks for the very interesting thread guys!

 

I am building a new campaign for A-10C where Gazelle will be working as AFAC / recon in several missions. So far I am learning thr basics of flying and never got to the point where I would use the targetting system. So just to be sure - after spotting the target, which type of coordinates would be easier for the Gazelle commander easier to provide for the A-10- lat/long or MGRS?

 

Thanks,

 

BD

ce535d_9d347b62819c4372b3c485a4f95d2004~mv2.png
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after spotting the target, which type of coordinates would be easier for the Gazelle commander easier to provide for the A-10- lat/long or MGRS?

My best guess: the commander is always keeping track of their current position on their (paper) maps as they fly around. When they spot an enemy unit or group, the pilot takes whatever defensive action is required, and then the commander works out (on the map) where the enemy they spotted is and pass it up the chain. So they'd use whatever coordinate system is annotated on their maps. Given they're an Army asset I guess it could reasonably be either? I don't know what French ground forces prefer to use.

 

The NADIR gives the Gazelle's current position in L/L and the sight gives bearing and distance (in metres), but I don't think those are particularly easy to combine directly. They might be able to mess around with the polar coordinate system to input an offset, but that doesn't appear to be what that input mode is designed for, and regardless it's unlikely to be any easier than just looking at the map that the commander probably has open all the time.

 

I think the sight is probably mainly used for either performing 'recon at a distance' of particular locations that are suspected to contain enemy forces, or to check out a town prior to ground forces entering it, or something like that.

 

I don't know if they'd directly work with fixed-winged aircraft, but if they did I think the sight would be useful for providing direct observation from a safe distance, to provide visual talk-ons and/or BDA reports, and report on enemy reactions to air attacks, aim corrections, and that kind of thing.

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I am building a new campaign for A-10C where Gazelle will be working as AFAC / recon in several missions. So far I am learning thr basics of flying and never got to the point where I would use the targetting system. So just to be sure - after spotting the target, which type of coordinates would be easier for the Gazelle commander easier to provide for the A-10- lat/long or MGRS?

 

Switching between lat/long and MGRS co-ordinate systems is simply a press of the GEO/UTM button in the Gazelle, so either system is as easy to input/read.

 

However the Gazelle uses XX° XX.X' for lat/long and AFAIK MGRS is the preferred NATO co-ordinate system, so would go with that, if it makes sense for the A-10C pilot.

 

There isn't an easy way to get target co-ordinates in the Gazelle without doing maths, as the Viviane gives range and bearing.

 

The best way I've seen for the A-10C was in this video, where the Gazelle gives it's own position and a target offset (range and bearing).

 

There's still a little maths for the Viviane range

 

kilometre x 0.54 = nautical mile

 

but other than that it's straight forward.


Edited by Ramsay

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Isn't Gazelle NADIR using UTM while A10C is using MGRS? I've never been able to get consistent result between both unless using L/L.

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Isn't Gazelle NADIR using UTM while A10C is using MGRS? I've never been able to get consistent result between both unless using L/L.

 

Good point, I'm less familiar with A-10C and you are indeed correct.

 

lat/long would be the way to go, as the numeric/letter code for the 100 km grid square wouldn't match and co-ordinates (last 5 or 4 digits) would only match if the Gazelle and A-10C were in the same 100 km square.

 

  • UTM - divides the world in bands, then you find your location in that
    band. Eg. 37N 712345 4667890 (37th band, northern hemisphere, then
    coordinate).
     
  • MGRS - divides the bands into squares, then divides the squares into
    smaller squares of 10 000m and name these after letters. Eg.
    37T GG1234567890 (Big square 37T, small square GG, coordinate easting
    12345 northing 67890).

 

For the sake of mission design, one could assume the Gazelle AFAC was reading/checking co-ordinates from a paper MGRS map if it suits.


Edited by Ramsay
Error on my part, forgot to page down in NADIR to UTM band

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There doesn't seem to be an easy way read PP (Present Position) in the UTM format, the UTM reading is always 41 41, so I'm not sure if it's a incomplete feature or a bug.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=146879&stc=1&d=1471965394

 

This how I'm working with MGRS and UTM at the moment and as we've been working in the same 100 km grid so often, I'd almost fogoten the need to take the grid square into account for conversions.

 

attachment.php?attachmentid=146880&stc=1&d=1471965394

 

It's just been a case of deleting/updating the last 4 digits on the Northing and Easting lines of the NADIR for most/all missions.

1594653243_PPUTMDoesntupdateScreen_160823_151213.jpg.8aed577354f8051de3efb740351d8318.jpg

1229664039_NADIRMGRStoUTMConversion.thumb.jpg.23b38aecefa4bec606bbf516b8ad11e3.jpg

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So, how would I take a target from the Vivane and then feed it to the A-10 with UTM?
Viviane gives range and bearing.

Not using the deviation method for the CDU. There has to be a way to just feed the A-10

There is a way, map read.

 

In DCS

  • F10 map for your own location. NADIR would have INS drift but in the middle of a featureless landscape, might still be your best tool.
  • F10 ruler, Viviane range and bearing and landmarks to estimate the enemies position/MGRS co-ordinates.
  • F10 map for target altitude

In real life, it's paper maps, etc. though GPS was used in Operation Degart 1992, I'm not sure how it was used by the Gazelles, etc (they used paper cutouts stuck to their sights to estimate tank ranges to fire their HOT missiles).

 

Calling in artillery in the BBC TV series 'Flying Soldiers' 1997

 

Map reading

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If youre FACing for A-10, use arbitrary units based on map objects with talk on.

 

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Hi

 

Using the polar coordinates . In what situation do I use them, etc. Would I like a practical example.

+1

 

I messed with it a bit, and it almost seems like it takes the difference between entered point 1 and 2, adds this difference to point 3 and stores it in point 4.

 

Can anyone verify?

 

Thanks

LP

 

modules:

F5-E / A4-E / A-10A / AJS-37 / SA-342 / UH-1H / Ka-50 / Mi-8 / CA

 

would buy:

OH-58 /AH-64A / AH-1 / Sepecat Jaguar / F-111

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I messed with it (polar coordinates)a bit, and it almost seems like it takes the difference between entered point 1 and 2, adds this difference to point 3 and stores it in point 4.

 

Can anyone verify?

Yes you have it, the polar copy function takes the polar vector between 2 way points and adds it to an existing way point to create a set of new coordinates that can be saved as a new way point or a self-referencing update.

attachment.php?attachmentid=144379&stc=1&d=1468754078

 

Creating WP3

  • POL, 1, 2, GEL, 2, 3, ENT

Updating WP3

  • POL, 1, 2, GEL, 3, 3, ENT

This post/thread has more discussion.


Edited by Ramsay

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Yes you have it, the polar copy function takes the polar vector between 2 way points and adds it to an existing way point to create a set of new coordinates that can be saved as a new way point or a self-referencing update.

<SNIP>

This post/thread has more discussion.

 

Ok, thanks Ramsay. Don't know how I missed that thread.

 

I guess one possible use would be:

- you spot a good artillery target in the distance;

- you save your current WP to 1;

- you get distance with Viviane (say 6km);

- you fly straight towards it until Viviane says 3km (half-way);

- drop a WP 2;

- do polar coord (WP1-WP2) added to WP2, stored in WP3;

- now WP3 should be your target;

- call fire mission.

 

Does that sound correct, or is there a flaw in my logic?

LP

 

modules:

F5-E / A4-E / A-10A / AJS-37 / SA-342 / UH-1H / Ka-50 / Mi-8 / CA

 

would buy:

OH-58 /AH-64A / AH-1 / Sepecat Jaguar / F-111

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