Agreement with Dassault

Dear Razbam people,

Do you have an agreement with Dassault for your Mirage?

I realize this question could very well be asked to you a dozen times per day, and worse, holds answers too sensitive for low level sim grunts like me, but so far my researches has returned nothing clear on that matter.

I'm asking this because like many others, I really, really, really want to get your Mirage module, and I heard that Dassault was not too cooperative with the public sim market.

Anyway, thanks a lot for your efforts and cool work. So far, this looks amazing.

TOP SECRET If they tell you they will have to kill you and then you would not be able to fly the Mirage in DCS. :)

Dassault isn't far from Belgium, they often cross the border to play paintball here at the local field. I can try to arrange the agreement with a few crates of our finest beer. :)

Throw enough money at a problem and a solution will be found

Throw enough money at a problem and a solution will be found

First, maybe there is no problem at all in the first place, in that departement. I was curious, and it was just a question based on a wild speculation.

Second, you are right, I think: enough money in those matters should solve any problem. However, if a company such as Dassault refuse to let go some datas in the first place, "enough money" is probably not within the reach of many game developing studio ;)

It's a good remark from tsumikae. You guys might remember all the fuss about the rafale simulator development that has been forced cancelled some (many) years ago, then the legal action Dassault took against a FS developer to remove his rafale add on from simmarket.

and then ?

VEAO Hawk is a good example of how long it can take to merchandise such product. I do think RAZBAM is ahead there as this very plane is already available on to the FSX play atform. I must admit since I saw the movie les chevaliers du ciel my interest kind of grew in me for that plane.

and then ?

Well, I just hope that indeed Razbam talked about this project to Dassault beforehand not to end up with a bunch of lawyers on their back before the product release.

VEAO Hawk is a good example of how long it can take to merchandise such product. I do think RAZBAM is ahead there as this very plane is already available on to the FSX play atform. I must admit since I saw the movie les chevaliers du ciel my interest kind of grew in me for that plane.

+1 Jonmarshall. Not the strongest scenario I have seen but definitively the most aesthetic movie about planes!

Well, I just hope that indeed Razbam talked about this project to Dassault beforehand not to end up with a bunch of lawyers on their back before the product release.

__________________

I hope I love Mirage 2000

From Aerosoft's forum, regarding the fsx release :

http://forum.aerosoft.com/index.php?/topic/92932-mirage-2000c-preview/

I am afraid a release of this amazing product by Aerosoft will be difficult. Dassault seems to be the most difficult we have ever encountered regarding rights. There is as always a lot of doubt a license is actually needed, but if Dassault so requires they can block the release indefinitely.

So for now this project is on ice. When things change or if the developer find a different distributor I will inform you.

And

Tim told me he will sell the Mirage2000 from his own site at metal2mesh.

Let hope everything goes well

Then Ok for FSX and P3D but for DCS?

As long as this forum exists, you can assume it's OK.

Collaboration with Dassault would be a must for a credible FM.

Maybe Mirage 3 would have been easier to do from this point of view? ...the legal one.

Quite a few years ago, when I worked for a UK games company, we were going to make a Rafale sim, and started work on it, (although it eventually got canned), with collaboration from Dassault, who were very keen to help us publicise their new baby. I visited their HQ in Paris with the game designer, and they gave us research material including hard bound volumes of the History of Dassault, so it seems unlikely that they are unwilling to help. Maybe just when work goes ahead without their blessing perhaps?

The Razbam M2000C is the DCS version of the Metal2Mesh work and is sold under the name of "M2000C", so officially is not a Mirage for the french commercial law because his name is not "Mirage 2000C". Also, Metal2Mesh and Dassault are French, so they have to reffer to the French Commercial laws (Razbam is an equatorian team but they use the product of M2M), and in this case, Dassault can't block the product because of the name. Some people can think "okay, but they are using the image of Mirage 2000C for their work", yes and not. Yes because they really use the image of the plane without modification, but if we reffer to the french commercial law, this image is now under public domain because the Mirage 2000 have been seen a lot of time at the TV, you can easily find pictures of the real plane, and most of people know the Mirage 2000 all around the world.

But if one day, Razbam decide to rename the product in "Mirage 2000C" or "Dassault M2000C", there are a lot of chances to be blocked by the manufacturer.

So RAZBAM doesn't have any support from Dassault. I don't think they have access to "official" data and documents coming from the source. What we know is that RAZBAM asked to use a set of documents about FM that were produced by a well known a member of the BMS community, who has been fine tuning the FM of the Mirage in the various iterations of Falcon 4 for a few years, and within that community there is a high consensus that this research represents the closest approximation of how the real Mirage 2000 flies.

According to that same community, the FM of the mirage in BMS is much closer (in terms of performance charts) to the real Mirage, than RAZBAM's mirage for DCS (although this comment was made about 2 months ago, and as I understand RAZBAM has made a lot of tweaks since then). Hopefully RAZBAM will keep to fine tune the FM until we have a very good representation.

One thing I'd like to ask is: what are the other qualified sources of RAZBAM? Any pilot / former pilot / technician etc. that worked on a Mirage?

So RAZBAM doesn't have any support from Dassault. I don't think they have access to "official" data and documents coming from the source. What we know is that RAZBAM asked to use a set of documents about FM that were produced by a well known a member of the BMS community, who has been fine tuning the FM of the Mirage in the various iterations of Falcon 4 for a few years, and within that community there is a high consensus that this research represents the closest approximation of how the real Mirage 2000 flies.

According to that same community, the FM of the mirage in BMS is much closer (in terms of performance charts) to the real Mirage, than RAZBAM's mirage for DCS (although this comment was made about 2 months ago, and as I understand RAZBAM has made a lot of tweaks since then). Hopefully RAZBAM will keep to fine tune the FM until we have a very good representation.

 

One thing I'd like to ask is: what are the other qualified sources of RAZBAM? Any pilot / former pilot / technician etc. that worked on a Mirage?

Yep Dassault doesn't help Razbam in any case.... Intellectual property in France is really strong and many manufacturer (from military industries or civilian) won't help devs for Aviation simulation, annd all the documention available will be leaks or unofficial (for example, in the U.S, the us navy has released the NATOPS for F/A-18E/F and EA-18G, this is unthinkable in France).... I think we gonna have the same problem if one day a 3rd party dev of DCS would create an EC665 Tiger for example...

For the M2000C it's a little bit different 'cause if I'm right, Razbam use documentation from Metal2Mesh who have former 2000 pilots on their team and they were supported by active pilots of French Air Force, but without the approuval of Dassault Aviation.

 

For the M2000C it's a little bit different 'cause if I'm right, Razbam use documentation from Metal2Mesh who have former 2000 pilots on their team and they were supported by active pilots of French Air Force, but without the approuval of Dassault Aviation.

FSX is a completely different animal compared to DCS, the depth of system and FM simulation in DCS is a whole tier up. I don't think anyone in the FSX community would care much about small details in the radar symbology or the effective range, but this can make or break a fighter in DCS.

The fact they are using documentation from an add-on made for FSX is not ensuring fidelity across the bar. I hope razbam have also direct access to former pilots and people in the know.

Edit: with that said, having real pilots on board is also not a guarantee of accuracy, I still have many doubts about the fidelity of the MiG-21 even though they have an active pilot in their team.

FSX is a completely different animal compared to DCS, the depth of system and FM simulation in DCS is a whole tier up. I don't think anyone in the FSX community would care much about small details in the radar symbology or the effective range, but this can make or break a fighter in DCS.

The fact they are using documentation from an add-on made for FSX is not ensuring fidelity across the bar. I hope razbam have also direct access to former pilots and people in the know.

 

 

Edit: with that said, having real pilots on board is also not a guarantee of accuracy, I still have many doubts about the fidelity of the MiG-21 even though they have an active pilot in their team.

WoW so uptight lol ...

FSX is a completely different animal compared to DCS, the depth of system and FM simulation in DCS is a whole tier up. I don't think anyone in the FSX community would care much about small details in the radar symbology or the effective range, but this can make or break a fighter in DCS.

The fact they are using documentation from an add-on made for FSX is not ensuring fidelity across the bar. I hope razbam have also direct access to former pilots and people in the know.

 

 

Edit: with that said, having real pilots on board is also not a guarantee of accuracy, I still have many doubts about the fidelity of the MiG-21 even though they have an active pilot in their team.

Take a look at VRS Super Hornet with TacPack on FSX, they even have a wiki.

It's a reference for any SIM, they only problem is the too peaceful environment.

But the Super Hornet is on par with Falcon 4 F-16 and well beyond FC3 F-15C.

There even is AG radar, with mapping, terrain avoidance and sea mode to use Harpoon, HARM Vs SA-2...

So the team is improving what they did for FSX.

Take a look at VRS Super Hornet with TacPack on FSX, they even have a wiki.

It's a reference for any SIM, they only problem is the too peaceful environment.

But the Super Hornet is on par with Falcon 4 F-16 and well beyond FC3 F-15C.

There even is AG radar, with mapping, terrain avoidance and sea mode to use Harpoon, HARM Vs SA-2...

 

So the team is improving what they did for FSX.

Yes I know, I am one of their oldest customers. But it doesn't change what I'm saying: the VRS F-18 is a great product, but in terms of actual armament system performance (radar, missiles etc), we will never fully realise how well it works until we have a real combat environment. TacPack is very far from providing a full combat sim experience, even if it's miles ahead of anything developed for FSX. Btw, VRS can count on natops manuals, pilots, and their FM programmer had a part in developing the legacy F-18 FBW. If anything, they should start do develop for DCS...

But make no mistake, I am thoroughly enjoying the Mirage and have high hopes for both the Mirage itself and Razbam!

Well, I just hope that indeed Razbam talked about this project to Dassault beforehand not to end up with a bunch of lawyers on their back before the product release.

It would be naive not to at least get a nod from Dassault. A small development team does not want to take on an aircraft manufacturer on the legal battlefield :noexpression:

Unlike others in this thread, I do not believe that the simple renaming of the aircraft (Mirage vs M) is going to make them exempt from legal risks. The name is just the most obvious thing, but any manufacturer of anything considerably complex would have patents for every other bolt and knob that's worth protecting.

The closer you venture into accurate replica (or sim) territory, the more likely you are at risk of infringing intellectual property. And the more accurate your replica (or sim), the lesser the chance to argue that you're not depicting the real thing -- the changed name won't shield you then.

Also, Ecuador has been operating Dassault planes, so they will have a legal presence there, too, which makes the fact that Razbam is from there and Dassault is French pretty moot.

It boils down to indie developer team vs. resources of a global aircraft manufacturer... So yeah, let's hope they have their backside covered :)