Jump to content

Air-to-Air Missile Discussion


Shein

Recommended Posts

We're not talking about the same thing. I already said that chaff outside of the radar beam is another story. I will however also point out that the beam doesn't drop power to zero outside of its defined limits, and sidelobes could also illuminate some chaff clouds - note this is just technical reference, not an explanation of what's going in the game.

 

Chaff being illuminated outside of the radar beam is ... I don't want to call it a bug, because it may be by design (ie. the decision is made not to add more complexity to the code) but I will raise the question.

 

Regarding effectiveness of chaff based on aspect, again, different story and it's a matter of replacing CM code. It's not a simple deal unfortunately, so I don't know when it will happen.

 

Ok good. But the ER missile is homing in on the radar return of the STT lock tracking radar. If the radar maintains lock (as it does in a look up situation) the ER will home in perfectly. Why should it track to chaff which is not illuminated? It has negligible rcs without radar illumination.

 

Furthermore it currently misguides even at aspect 45° and not even a 90° beam?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Replies 1.8k
  • Created
  • Last Reply

Top Posters In This Topic

We're not talking about the same thing. I already said that chaff outside of the radar beam is another story. I will however also point out that the beam doesn't drop power to zero outside of its defined limits, and sidelobes could also illuminate some chaff clouds - note this is just technical reference, not an explanation of what's going in the game.

 

Chaff being illuminated outside of the radar beam is ... I don't want to call it a bug, because it may be by design (ie. the decision is made not to add more complexity to the code) but I will raise the question.

 

Regarding effectiveness of chaff based on aspect, again, different story and it's a matter of replacing CM code. It's not a simple deal unfortunately, so I don't know when it will happen.

 

Thanks. Im only looking for acknowledgment that the bug/issue is recognised. I was also confused when you said earlier that you shouldn't expect to die in the above situation.

 

The trouble in the game now, as I think we can agree, is that the ERs continue to see chaff they shouldn't, even outside the beam. Given that re-writing the code is a likely a long and onerous process, could a solution be to minimise chaff effectiveness further (outside an almost perfect notch - such that the TR loses lock anyway)?

 

I'd be willing to accept slightly overpowered missile seeker logic across the board temporarily (say until DCS:F18/27/15 are well established) in order to get a more realistic BVR setup


Edited by ///Rage

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron

Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron

TS: 195.201.110.22

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The trouble in the game now, as I think we can agree, is that the ERs continue to see chaff they shouldn't, even outside the beam. Given that re-writing the code is a likely a long and onerous process, could a solution be to minimise chaff effectiveness further (outside an almost perfect notch - such that the TR loses lock anyway)?

 

I can't go into depth, but doing that would really break some other things as well. Missiles that don't lose lock are not desired, even temporarily.

 

I'd be willing to accept slightly overpowered missile seeker logic across the board temporarily (say until DCS:F18/27/15 are well established) in order to get a more realistic BVR setup
You're not going to get a more realistic BVR setup. It'll just be less realistic, but from a different perspective. You instantly give advantage to every lawnmower out there, and that is not desired at all, especially since it squashes one of the major reasons for creating the new missile FM.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Some test will be conducted where 51st are comparing ER, to Aim-120B/C. If there is too great differences I would suggest that 51st will not allow aim-120C on servers because it is a missile from another decade which would not face Su-27S, but rahere Su-30,Su-27SM,Su-34,Su-35 and so on.

 

Red side has ARH capability, MiG-29S. Red just needs to be organized so Su and MiG support each other. As far as FC3 is concerned, neither side has a technological gap advantage when it comes to missiles.

 

To be honest I don't think that many had a BVR kill whit ER after FC3 realise, they all hit when you are in visual range if you are lucky. ;)

I'm an occasional Flanker player, but even so I didn't really notice the AIM-120 outraging the R-27ER so drastically. You're lucky to get a true BVR kill with any missile with things as they are. The 120 is pretty useless until 15 nm unless the target flies completely straight.

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exorcet, trust me I know how to stand a fight against F15s in Su-27. ER should have longer legs as i know or the same as aim-120C which actually can not be proved anywhere, The data which is available to public shows that ERs should have longer legs. That is my conclusion from what I have been reading on the forums.

 

If we would accept everything, F-15 fanboys would have the exceptional F-15 from Alaska with data link mod by now (LEAVU). We need to be sceptical or we would fly whit Chaff that is 10 times more effective then it should be. In the end there is not enough data to make certain conclusions thats why those parameters that is not known should not be bias.


Edited by Teknetinium

Teknetinium 2017.jpg
                        51st PVO Discord SATAC YouTube
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

In the meantime I fly both birds the Su27 and F15 regularily in MP. As far as I can tell the AIM-120C really drastically outbalances the 27ER as far as You dont have any realistic chance of BVR-hits with them unless the target doesnt do anything about it and even doenst shoot back. This goes as far that I think that as a noob (I still am) You are litterally forced in taking the Eagle, as You can splash loads of average players even as a noob and even though I think the Su is quite the superior plane with both better avionics and better aerodynamics. For those I like flying the Su more. I think when You are an experienced and skilled pilot You still have anadvantage with the Su, as You have good SA with EOS and Datalink and the way better heaters so You can splash loads of Noobs who never know You were there.

But as all I've read this whole it should be like this or like that thing doesnt make so much sense for a simulation with the purpose to make it as realistic it can be and regardless to the advantages of any side or any kind of balancing. But as I also read in many threads it should be pretty normal that a SAHR-27ER which seem to be an almost ancient missile is way inferior to a state-of-the-art modern Aim-120C. Perhaps it makes sense to give the russian side some hardware from that time of age such as Su27-SM which can carry ARH-77s as well. I don't quite understand why the russians have their state-of-the-art 77s in operation but their state-of-the-art plane Su27 can't carry them. That seems to be a weird situation. So I think Su27 should get a AHR too (as simple solution) to at least get a little bit of balance regarding bvr tactics.

 

Only my opinion after all I've read.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Good combat flight is understanding the nature of things and the feeling to handle it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I like to play the su27 usually.But the 27er is totally useless in game.I don't belive the russians use such useless missiles in real life.

not that i have any problem killing F15s.

 

+1:thumbup:

 

There are two Problems here:

 

one: when we talk about the world fans, the Su-27 and Mig-29 are lovely fighters and a lot of people prefer flight these birds ( in total contradiction with " the F-15 is the most popular ). So they claim a better Missile Performance...

 

two: when we talk about propaganda, marketing and money, then the F-15 must be the beast and the best of the best, if is not like that, then something should be fixed. Here the Aim-120 should be like the magazines and history channel say

 

 

Complicated the Situation...:smilewink:

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Maybe just the propaganda of America is the best after all ;-). But these are stoneold discussions. Sure it seems the Russian fighters seem more emotional to fly with a better feeling. But I try to keep it objectively. In my opinion with the 4 things: aerodynamics, eos, heaters and datalink the Su27 surely is the better plane, besides the more ergonomic cockpit anyway, but it seems in that decade the fighters from fc3 come from the russians didn't simply have the money to complete their brilliant ideas. Anyway the R27-ER in the game how it is now is ridiculous and nobody would use it in real if there are ANY alternatives.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Good combat flight is understanding the nature of things and the feeling to handle it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

+1:thumbup:

 

 

two: when we talk about propaganda, marketing and money, then the F-15 must be the beast and the best of the best, if is not like that, then something should be fixed. Here the Aim-120 should be like the magazines and history channel say

 

 

Complicated the Situation...:smilewink:

 

 

Without such AIM120 F15 is good enough to be a beast. It is undisputed. This is about the fact that the is beast and Su27

 

@otto

I don't belive the russians use such useless missiles in real life.

not that i have any problem killing F15s.

 

The ER obsolete, will be used to Su35S? For Su35 has invested a lot of money and use outdated ER?

But one important thing! ER had to be upgrade with every upgrade radar. It is not out of date. The problem is that ED is trying to simulate from manual for Su27SK and R-27ER1 that export versions. Range for R-27ER1 is 65,5km. R-27ER 70km and enhanced seekers. (range for russian criterion is 10km altitude, head on, reciprocal velocity 1 mach true speed or 0.9 graund mach). Range for ET1 is 52,5km, R-27R1 42.5km, R-27T1 33km. American criterion is 30 000ft altitude 650mph speed, head on, AIM120C5 55-65km, AIM120B 50-55km, AIM-7M 45-50km!

RVV-AE base line is export version, and russian is not used. But use RVV-SD (range is 70-80km). Su27S/SK not use ARH!


Edited by Ragnarok

“The people will believe what the media tells them they believe.” — George Orwell

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Exorcet, trust me I know how to stand a fight against F15s in Su-27. ER should have longer legs as i know or the same as aim-120C which actually can not be proved anywhere, The data which is available to public shows that ERs should have longer legs. That is my conclusion from what I have been reading on the forums.

 

If we would accept everything, F-15 fanboys would have the exceptional F-15 from Alaska with data link mod by now (LEAVU). We need to be sceptical or we would fly whit Chaff that is 10 times more effective then it should be. In the end there is not enough data to make certain conclusions thats why those parameters that is not known should not be bias.

 

I wouldn't doubt for a second that you are a better Su-27 pilot than me. Just having km on the HUD messes with me sometimes. However, I feel I'm a decent F-15 pilot, and I'm not scoring kills at long distances. The AIM-120C is most likely the best missile, and out of the missiles in game available for players, this makes sense. However, I don't think things are so one sided that a ban is needed (not to say that I'd oppose a mission where this ban is in place). Outside of 15 nm, the AIM-120 will basically try to miss. Inside that range, it's much more lethal, but you probably need 10 nm or less to kill an alert player.

 

I'm not opposed to improving ER performance, because I really think that all MRM's need a range boost. If the data says the R-27 has longer legs, it should have longer legs. What I do dislike is the apparent feeling that thr Russian missiles are more gimped. I don't really see it.

 

I don't quite understand why the russians have their state-of-the-art 77s in operation but their state-of-the-art plane Su27 can't carry them. That seems to be a weird situation. So I think Su27 should get a AHR too (as simple solution) to at least get a little bit of balance regarding bvr tactics.

 

I agree with this, a mid to high range Su-27 varient should probably come to DCS World at some point. Now that ED is doing separate modules, this is a good opportunity. Another thing is that the Russian planes are designed for GCI (especially the MiG) however this is extremely basic (as is AWACS). Perhaps an overhaul of those systems should become a priority?


Edited by Exorcet

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I wouldn't doubt for a second that you are a better Su-27 pilot than me. Just having km on the HUD messes with me sometimes. However, I feel I'm a decent F-15 pilot, and I'm not scoring kills at long distances. The AIM-120C is most likely the best missile, and out of the missiles in game available for players, this makes sense. However, I don't think things are so one sided that a ban is needed (not to say that I'd oppose a mission where this ban is in place). Outside of 15 nm, the AIM-120 will basically try to miss. Inside that range, it's much more lethal, but you probably need 10 nm or less to kill an alert player.

 

I'm not opposed to improving ER performance, because I really think that all MRM's need a range boost. If the data says the R-27 has longer legs, it should have longer legs. What I do dislike is the apparent feeling that thr Russian missiles are more gimped. I don't really see it.

 

You would have seen it for sure before the last patch. ED came out and said it was a bug with chaff RCS which disproportionately affected the ER over the 120. Its just that they're are slightly less disabled now.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]



64th "Scorpions" Aggressor Squadron

Discord: 64th Aggressor Squadron

TS: 195.201.110.22

Link to comment
Share on other sites

You would have seen it for sure before the last patch. ED came out and said it was a bug with chaff RCS which disproportionately affected the ER over the 120. Its just that they're are slightly less disabled now.

I'm aware of the chaff issue (which I want fixed), but even given this, defeating a missile kinetically was relatively easy. The ARH's would track all the way to the target, but they'd only be annoyances on the RWR since they were basically dead and no longer capable of maneuvering when they got close to their target.

 

More of the R-27's failures would be from chaff than for the AIM-120, but the overall failure rate of both missiles felt similar to me.

 

I suppose also on the topic of balance, perhaps an option to limit player payloads. We have a warehouse right now, but as far as I know, if you limit the number of AIM-120C, that wouldn't stop one or two players from loading 8 AMRAAM's each while the supply lasted. Maybe the warehouse could use updating to also limit how much of each ammunition can be taken by a certain aircraft.

Awaiting: DCS F-15C

Win 10 i5-9600KF 4.6 GHz 64 GB RAM RTX2080Ti 11GB -- Win 7 64 i5-6600K 3.6 GHz 32 GB RAM GTX970 4GB -- A-10C, F-5E, Su-27, F-15C, F-14B, F-16C missions in User Files

 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Because this version Su27SK no data link for the guidance ARH and a 3D projection of the radar N-001. Only 2D!

 

The less advanced radar of the MIG-29S can do this. Wouldn't it be easy to have this feature installed on the SU-27 too?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Good combat flight is understanding the nature of things and the feeling to handle it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I can't hit with a AIM-120 for sh** against a normal player in MP over more than 15 miles. And even below 15 miles it’s really hard to hit a experienced player that knows what he is doing.

Once (Before the latest patches) i even missed all of my Amraams firing them on a noob not even doing defensive maneuvers within 15 miles.

And i had altitude and speed advantage.

Even now i am making sure every time to come within 15 miles because i don’t want to waste missiles and be called a SPAMRAAM guy. I even switched over to AIM-7's and get more guaranteed kills with them within 15 miles.

I don’t say there are no issue's with the Russian missiles. But the AIM-120 is not as good in DCS as some people suggest.

 

Maybe I’m just a bad shot and tactician. Cause yesterday none of my missiles hit as well (some shots over 15 miles) and i got splashed every time after firing i don’t know how many AIM-120's. Maybe i was flying against experts. But even then, some had to hit (8 miles with altitude and speed advantage again). But none did.

I was so frustrated i just had to leave. And thats really rare for me to do.. Cause i like a good challenge. Especially fighting those smart Russian pilots on the 51st. Even typing about it makes me want to fly now :)... But i am at work :(


Edited by winchesterdelta1

Go in close, and when you think you are too close, go in closer.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

I agree with this, a mid to high range Su-27 varient should probably come to DCS World at some point. Now that ED is doing separate modules, this is a good opportunity. Another thing is that the Russian planes are designed for GCI (especially the MiG) however this is extremely basic (as is AWACS). Perhaps an overhaul of those systems should become a priority?

 

Su-27S has data link compared to F-15C, That is huge advantage if you fly whit no AWACS or GCI.

Russian aircrafts become even more deadly with GCI and AWACS because of EOS which can scan and track in silence.


Edited by Teknetinium

Teknetinium 2017.jpg
                        51st PVO Discord SATAC YouTube
 

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The less advanced radar of the MIG-29S can do this. Wouldn't it be easy to have this feature installed on the SU-27 too?

 

MiG-29S is more advanced than the Su-27SK. MiG-29A/B/G are at the level with the Su-27SK. MiG-29S/SMT=Su-27SM/SM3

 

Su-27S has data link compared to F-15C, That is huge advantage if you fly whit no AWACS or GCI.

Russian aircrafts become even more deadly with GCI and AWACS because of EOS which can scan and track in silence.

 

https://www.dropbox.com/s/qx3lgbscrrt82oj/MR1235.chap9.pdf

This is not like a direct line EWR-Su27, but this is a good network.

One more thing, exists direct DATA link connection between two Su 27 in a smaller range, independently from the guidance center.


Edited by Ragnarok

“The people will believe what the media tells them they believe.” — George Orwell

Link to comment
Share on other sites

Outside of 15 nm, the AIM-120 will basically try to miss. Inside that range, it's much more lethal, but you probably need 10 nm or less to kill an alert player.

 

I'm not opposed to improving ER performance, because I really think that all MRM's need a range boost. If the data says the R-27 has longer legs, it should have longer legs. What I do dislike is the apparent feeling that thr Russian missiles are more gimped. I don't really see it.

 

But 10nm is quite a giant distance for A2A tactics as modelled in FC3. You easily can evade any russian missile on that distance using ground, notch, kinetics ect .... On that distance I get loads of players with the Eagles TWS as they notice the warning too late. The combination of TWS and AIM 120C seems unbeatable. Every guy who's flying directly into an eagle is a dead guy. Thats a fixed rule. But the main point here is not the quality of the missiles but the fact if they're ARH or not. Because I can do all these maneuvers while the SU27 driver has to wait for impact. But thats no very satisfying way to fight. I don't see this reliability problem with the R27ER either as I can have some good hits with it too in the rare cases I can guid it up to the target. And I don't like complaints either about this old fashioned missile should be as good as AIM120C, thats rubbish. But I think the SU just needs an ARH so it has a bit more tactical mobility.

 

With the experts using ground monitains and eos its a diffrent story of course.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

 

Good combat flight is understanding the nature of things and the feeling to handle it.

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The ER obsolete, will be used to Su35S? For Su35 has invested a lot of money and use outdated ER?

 

Because they don't have a good replacement for the ER yet, and they don't want to sink money into R-77.

 

But one important thing! ER had to be upgrade with every upgrade radar.

 

No, it didn't. The radar just has to accomodate it. There's not much evidence that R-27 seeker was upgraded, and if it was, it probably didn't sustain the upgrade pace that AIM-120 had.

 

 

It is not out of date. The problem is that ED is trying to simulate from manual for Su27SK and R-27ER1 that export versions. Range for R-27ER1 is 65,5km. R-27ER 70km and enhanced seekers. (range for russian criterion is 10km altitude, head on, reciprocal velocity 1 mach true speed or 0.9 graund mach). Range for ET1 is 52,5km, R-27R1 42.5km, R-27T1 33km. American criterion is 30 000ft altitude 650mph speed, head on, AIM120C5 55-65km, AIM120B 50-55km, AIM-7M 45-50km!

 

US Criterion is >50km for AIM-120C5 20000' M0.9 shooter-target parameters, and >105km for unspecified criteria.

Even AIM-7M is capable of flying some 100km at high altitude, but it's seeker and power limited.

 

RVV-AE base line is export version, and russian is not used. But use RVV-SD (range is 70-80km). Su27S/SK not use ARH!

 

Russians don't use RVV-SD. That's a missile that's meant to replace the R-77/RVV-AE, which Russia is not using. There is only a rumour that RuAF has a very small stock of R-77, but all indications (training regimes etc) show that they still use R-27, and not any ARH at all.

 

When RVV-SD enters production, they will replace R-27 with that.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, it didn't. The radar just has to accomodate it. There's not much evidence that R-27 seeker was upgraded, and if it was, it probably didn't sustain the upgrade pace that AIM-120 had.

The Russians will not give you. They do not make them an army that we were playing simulation.

 

US Criterion is >50km for AIM-120C5 20000' M0.9 shooter-target parameters, and >105km for unspecified criteria.

Even AIM-7M is capable of flying some 100km at high altitude, but it's seeker and power limited.

 

>105km is for balistic range (30 000ft usa/ 10km altitude russia, 1 mach indicated speed (1800km/h).

Balistic range for AIM-120C5 is >57nm(105km), AIM-B >40nm, R-27ER >130km, R-27R 80km, R-77 base line 100km, RVV-SD 140km.

AIM-120A is 35nm. Operationally, this value is ignored. In battle no one gonna fly that.

 

Russians don't use RVV-SD. That's a missile that's meant to replace the R-77/RVV-AE, which Russia is not using. There is only a rumour that RuAF has a very small stock of R-77, but all indications (training regimes etc) show that they still use R-27, and not any ARH at all.

 

When RVV-SD enters production, they will replace R-27 with that.

 

True, did not enter series production but the RVV-SD is made! It is not just a project.

I am not a supporter of FC to put something that is not in operational use.

“The people will believe what the media tells them they believe.” — George Orwell

Link to comment
Share on other sites

No, it didn't. The radar just has to accomodate it. There's not much evidence that R-27 seeker was upgraded, and if it was, it probably didn't sustain the upgrade pace that AIM-120 had.

 

Serbian air force last year upgraded radar on the MiG-29B. We had to order a 6 new missiles R-27R from Russia for 250 000 dollars that have seekers compatible with the new radar. In stock we have 125 misiles also R-27R, which can't be used with the new upgraded radar. They are compatible with the older radar in MiG29B


Edited by Ragnarok
  • Like 1

“The people will believe what the media tells them they believe.” — George Orwell

Link to comment
Share on other sites

The Russians will not give you. They do not make them an army that we were playing simulation.

 

We have at least one person who works in that industry on the test team; he has good knowledge of these things on the Russian side. If there was a significant change (different seeker version) he can tell us.

 

>105km is for balistic range (30 000ft usa/ 10km altitude russia, 1 mach indicated speed (1800km/h).

Balistic range for AIM-120C5 is >57nm(105km), AIM-B >40nm, R-27ER >130km, R-27R 80km, R-77 base line 100km, RVV-SD 140km.

AIM-120A is 35nm. Operationally, this value is ignored. In battle no one gonna fly that.

 

Sorry but that is not correct. The 120C5 has an operational range of 105km+. It's not ballistic range. Like I said however, the parameters are unknown and this may well be a 'Raptor Shot' ie - 40000-50000' M1.5+

 

 

True, did not enter series production but the RVV-SD is made! It is not just a project.

I am not a supporter of FC to put something that is not in operational use.

 

Right, until it enters production though it's not in use. This is a moot point though for the game, it's just a historical detail.

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

But this doesn't mean anything about the seeker: The data bus can be new, the datalink/radio equipment may be different. While I figure it would come with a seeker upgrade, sure, I just haven't heard of any claims of constant upgrading like the 7 or 120.

 

That said, I'm not trying to say that the R-27 is a bad missile - just an old design.

 

Serbian air force last year upgraded radar on the MiG-29B. We had to order a 6 new missiles R-27R from Russia for 250 000 dollars that have seekers compatible with the new radar. In stock we have 125 misiles also R-27R, which can't be used with the new upgraded radar. They are compatible with the older radar in MiG29B

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

Link to comment
Share on other sites

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    • No registered users viewing this page.
×
×
  • Create New...