AI Messerschmitt Bf109E Beta released

fly Bf109E Beta with P-51 cockpit: copy your bin, cockpit, FM,options,l10n in P-51D folder TO Bf109E folder

entry.rar

Input.rar

I still find it too hard to shoot the BF-109E down.

Watch my track...

P51_Bf109_1.trk

Though I have over 100 hits (Counted in the after action report), it seems not to have taken any damage at all.

I still find it too hard to shoot the BF-109E down.

 

Watch my track...

[ATTACH]79290[/ATTACH]

 

Though I have over 100 hits (Counted in the after action report), it seems not to have taken any damage at all.

I had the same findings. I put a few manpads around to see how much damage the bf-109 could take. It took two direct hits to take one down. In another test I put a BF-109 vs. F-16. The Bf-109 soaked up all the 20mm rounds from the F-16 and shot down the F-16 with a burst. :pilotfly:

I hope ED will integrate this directly in a future DCS build. more AI stuff are always welcome !

This looks great and a welcome addition!

Just please make the damage modeling and the aircraft behaviour based on real hit data and not what "feels" or "seems" right. That may be asking for a lot but DCS has a high standard and it would be good to know that the 109 is still flying because you didn't damage the right system or you simply missed despite thinking you were getting a high hit rate.

I'd hate to see a "50 cal's are porked" thread appearing here.

I hear you all on the damage, and I'm looking into it.

Also remember that the Bf109E has a very small radar signature, so anything using a radar for targeting may have a hard time tracking it (e.g. F-15, modern AAA).

I just tried the exact same scenario with a P-51D instead of the BF-109.

It was way easier to shoot down the P-51, but that said I must also say that DCS World isn´t that optimised for close in guns vs guns dogfights.

The way hits are sensed looks more like the good old large hit-boxes used in earlier sims.

This is not meant to be negative critic, cause DCS is still very good it all other areas.

Do you mean to say that the hit boxes are off on the P-51? Because I have not seen this?

No - that would be to state something I have no prove for or reason to make accusations for.

But as You can watch on my TRK file most of my shots goes right into the fuselage with no apparent impact on damage level.

If I fly really close to the enemy (closer and I bend my propblades) and fire right into him little damage occurs and only few shots actually hits. If I stay way out of range, lets say 150 ft away I can get alot of shots into him.

Compared to IL-2 CLOD or Rise of flight I feel that too many shots simply misses, not to state that those two sims might be more accurate.

No - that would be to state something I have no prove for or reason to make accusations for.

 

But as You can watch on my TRK file most of my shots goes right into the fuselage with no apparent impact on damage level.

 

If I fly really close to the enemy (closer and I bend my propblades) and fire right into him little damage occurs and only few shots actually hits. If I stay way out of range, lets say 150 ft away I can get alot of shots into him.

 

Compared to IL-2 CLOD or Rise of flight I feel that too many shots simply misses, not to state that those two sims might be more accurate.

In no way is ROF more accurate, they even admitted they have the flight model wrong on some of their planes and will not correct it, that speaks volumes.

This sim spanks ROF without the damage model, planes act like planes, you throttle back the nose goes down, throttle up the nose goes up. Though ROF does look a little nicer.

But as You can watch on my TRK file most of my shots goes right into the fuselage with no apparent impact on damage level.

 

If I fly really close to the enemy (closer and I bend my propblades) and fire right into him little damage occurs and only few shots actually hits. If I stay way out of range, lets say 150 ft away I can get alot of shots into him.

 

Compared to IL-2 CLOD or Rise of flight I feel that too many shots simply misses, not to state that those two sims might be more accurate.

As noted earlier, I appreciate all the feedback and I am looking into it, but remember that the Bf109E is a small aircraft, and the P-51D guns are calibrated to converge at a specific distance (about 1000ft, I believe). As a result, not all your bullets will be hitting the target unless you are roughly at that range. This could be why you are not having as many hits when you are either much closer (bullets fly either side of the 109 fuselage) or further away than 1000ft (bullets cross before they reach the target).

Referring back to the video I made, you can see at time 1:43, it only takes a few rounds (that definitely do hit in a one second burst) to completely destroy the 109...

See here

I would be interested to know if anyone thinks the damage taken by the Bf109 before a kill is ok before I update the Beta?

Do You really think gun convergence is set to 1000 ft ?

For air to air I would rather think they should be set to somewhere around 100-150 ft.

I know that adding the option to set gun convergence has been discussed before and probably won´t be added, but it would still be good in order to utilise the K-51 "Acemaker" gunsight much better, setting the sight distance to the convergence distance. This way You would perfectly know where the guns would be most effective.

Note!!

My succesrate against the BF-109E has increased, so don´t use my single feedback for determing wheteher anything should be adjusted on the damage model.

they are from "Cyrcus" :D

I find they break away very odd when you attack. They seem to slide or so... Oh and I dive on them with 500mph (redlined), made the pass but they skid/break away so I didn't followed but zoom away and I was shocked to see after 2 seconds tracers around me... they miss but...

Do You really think gun convergence is set to 1000 ft ?

P-51D gun convergence in DCS - around 1000ft (333 yards or 305m)...

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=102702

Actual P-51D Pilot's Flight Operating Instructions (Page 40) - between 250 to 300 yards (750 to 900 feet or 229m to 274m)

Link to P-51D Flight Manual

In game, that's this far - Quite a long way away, isn't it?! Any closer than that, and assuming your pipper is lined up, your bullets are whizzing either side of the fuselage. Of course the 109 has nose guns as well as wing guns, so he doesn't have to worry as much!

they are from "Cyrcus" :D

 

 

I find they break away very odd when you attack. They seem to slide or so... Oh and I dive on them with 500mph (redlined), made the pass but they skid/break away so I didn't followed but zoom away and I was shocked to see after 2 seconds tracers around me... they miss but...

Yes. you'll get the same results from the P-51D's after a ground strafing run..

Send me a track of your 500mph attack so I can see this skid behavior you mentioned - thanks.

According to some articles I have here, 1000ft (330 yards) was set later in the war for ground strafing. Otherwise the norm was 800ft (260 yards).

Like others have said, it's great to have an opponent that isn't another P-51. Thanks again for this, really appreciated!

 

I will admit though, I'm hoping for a DCS 109G-14 down the road. Don't get me wrong, I'm happy they are making DCS 190, but I've always had a soft spot for the 109s.

I can't wait for the arguments over which of the dozens of 109 variants should be added:

109G-6

109G-6/AS

109G-14

109G-14/AS

109G-10

109K-4

...just to name a few possible candidates. Personally, I find the standard Mk 108 in the K-4 to not be very practical except for bomber interceptions. Perhaps a 109G-10 would be a good choice. Otherwise, anything less than a DB 605D engine is going to make the 109 suffer against the P-51D.

Hey kato,

I would like to add that the 109s on the ground take a lot of damage to destroy. I managed to score two direct hits with HVARs and it left it as stumps. But it would not destroy it. Something I think you should look into.

I honesty like the fact that the model doesn't explode after a gun run. I find it more realistic, but it plays hell with triggers set to on destroy. A direct hit with a rocket should destroy it imo.

I think the two issues I reported are related one to a hiccup in network connection at exact inappropriate moment and the second to my wrong judgment of egressing the attack...

I record the exact part I was referring from the very long track I found in the replays folder.

You can see that the 109s slide to the left and make me go "wtf?" but few moments later they have a "snapping" movement to the right as if the game was recalculating their position.

nPGVXkW8Xes

I think the two issues I reported are related one to a hiccup in network connection at exact inappropriate moment and the second to my wrong judgment of egressing the attack...

 

You can see that the 109s slide to the left and make me go "wtf?" but few moments later they have a "snapping" movement to the right as if the game was recalculating their position.

 

Thanks for posting the video - assuming you were online, it does look like a network issue in this case.

3D Model

I read in the threads that the Emil was selected because the author had access to the 3D model. What format 3D model is required for this?

On another note, it might be better if the skin of this or whatever model gets done next is a little more distinct from the terrain palette.. this gets pretty washed out.

Great work for a "quick and dirty" MOD.. very much appreciated.

Would it be possible to take the in game P51D internal and 3D and simply give it a new 3D model so we could at least have online combat with easy air ID? A late model 109 or Fw would be a good 3D adversary.. Maybe even a Yak9P for a Korean war flavor..

yes, we were online, I play with 3 friends mostly coops fun training scenarios. The server was not on my machine as it is struggling with the FPS anyway (weak CPU, C2D 3GHz).

I read in the threads that the Emil was selected because the author had access to the 3D model. What format 3D model is required for this?

3DS Max

On another note, it might be better if the skin of this or whatever model gets done next is a little more distinct from the terrain palette.. this gets pretty washed out.

You can make you own skin for this if you like - just edit the texture in the mod file. I won't be making any further updates to the model or texture, apart from fixing as many bugs as is possible.

Great work for a "quick and dirty" MOD.. very much appreciated..

You're welcome!

Would it be possible to take the in game P51D internal and 3D and simply give it a new 3D model so we could at least have online combat with easy air ID? A late model 109 or Fw would be a good 3D adversary.. Maybe even a Yak9P for a Korean war flavor..

Not with this "just for a bit of fun" mod! I'm sure there will be other mods following (including a DCS FW190) if you read various threads in this forum :)

You should consider modding a bomber as well

Hey kato,

I would like to add that the 109s on the ground take a lot of damage to destroy. I managed to score two direct hits with HVARs and it left it as stumps. But it would not destroy it. Something I think you should look into.

I honesty like the fact that the model doesn't explode after a gun run. I find it more realistic, but it plays hell with triggers set to on destroy. A direct hit with a rocket should destroy it imo.

Krebs, I assume one of the triggers you are looking for includes "crash"?

I did a quick test, in a single strafing run with HVAR's. It killed the pilot and achieved a "crash" status according to the debrief with 4 hits from HVAR's. I certainly wouldn't claim they were direct hits - I imagine each did a little more cumulative damage, but the Bf109E was destroyed visually, with the "crash" status (see end of this video)...