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Label OFF...why?!?!?


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I have installed Flaming Cliffs just few weeks ago and i love the new label system (that is more or less the same that i have used, edit by me, in lock 1.02)

my question is:

why in the server label is always swithced off?!?!

i think that the visibility range in game is not so realistic and i think that the new system of label is perfect.

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now i don't remember the minimum distance setted in the .lua files but from the first time that i played Flaming cliffs i found it appropriate.

 

If i switch off the label i have to stay alway zoom in on contrary if you are zoom out is very difficult to spot a plane.

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I think most people when they have had labels off for a bit they hate labels, as it looks odd and spoils their immersion. Also servers are attached to squadrons, which almost always play without labels.

You are right about it being better in 1.1 than 1.02, but TBH I think no-labels is more realistic - you can still see aircraft from about 30km clear, and ground units are much easier to spot now.

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it is more realistic, than labels, you'll NEVER be able to see a fighter over the distance you see the labels, not even when the weather is perfect

 

Hmm, interesting, that's the exact *opposite* of what real fighter pilots have to say about labels in flight sims.

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I have installed Flaming Cliffs just few weeks ago and i love the new label system (that is more or less the same that i have used, edit by me, in lock 1.02)

my question is:

why in the server label is always swithced off?!?!

i think that the visibility range in game is not so realistic and i think that the new system of label is perfect.

 

 

um... no. You may be right about the visibility range and all that, but at least it's an effort. There is nothing about labels that even resembles realism.

 

nothing.

 

Proper use of the instruments will alert you to the presence of other aircraft, whether they are friend or foe, weapons deployed against you, radars looking at you.. it's all there, some of it redundant.

 

A combination of self motivation to study & learn and help from more experienced pilots is the key to success.

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i'm fully agree with you about the realism and the fact that labels are not a "real think"

I also know that radar, RWR, EWS helps a lot to find enemy

 

BUT (probably i have some problem with my eyes)

 

i found that planes are "plotted" on the screnn too late (or in other terms too close).

 

In any case i will try to fly without labels.

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It's not easy for anyone at first, to be sure. Just do our best with what we have. Lock on is about as good as it gets as far as visible ring, or whatever you want to call it. Can't duplicate human vision, but Team Smirnoff here is doing pretty well :)

 

I will note however that there is a notable blind spot since FC It seems you can see others up close and far away but the middle of the range is noticeably much harder to find other planes. Depends on aspect/ background of course.

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it is more realistic, than labels, you'll NEVER be able to see a fighter over the distance you see the labels, not even when the weather is perfect

 

Really? Concidering that LOMAC nor todays hardware can even approach the rez or dot-pitch needed I find that hard to believe.

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Although I agree with DayGlow I still don't use labels even though you most certainly can see aircraft and ground objects at much further distances with greater clarity in real life than you can in lockon. Part of the problem I would guess is resolution, there is no way to match what the human eye can see with a monitor and graphics card even with everything on the highest settings. Lockon does a good job but I would still like to see it improved with a much more stable image. However Lockon has come a long way since 1.0 where it was at times difficult near impossible to see other fighters at ranges as close as 2km. That said labels do not make things more realistic at all but quite the opposite for many reasons that have already been mentioned here. Right now I never use labels for any missions that I create but for some I download then I most likely will if it's clear the mission was built using labels. This is another reason why labels destroy the immersion factor.. well for me anyway because they tend to produce unrealistic missions.

 

The best view distances I've ever seen in a sim has to be IL2, if lockon view settings were as good as IL2 then no one would be using labels in lockon not even the new guys.

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We must always take into account that there are severe limitations to the "realism" of a PC-sim. For one thing, situational awareness is WAY below the real thing. For the simple reason that you already don't have your body awareness in a sim, which is one of the most fundamental orientation aids. Your field of view is also very limited.

 

Add to that the the newbee that is flying on his 1024*768 17" monitor with classic keyboard, mouse and generic joystick risks to fly unknowingly against people with multiple screens, very high resolution and above all TrackIR, HOTAS sticks etc. etc. and of course teamspeak.

 

The thing I personally lack most is the constant radio-chatter that is so essential to flying, and certainly air combat.

 

So my guess is: if someone likes labels, its his choice. Depends what you want to learn or simulate. Has not much to do with "realism" or "fair play" whatever.

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It has everything to do with it. If someone in a russian plane has gotten to my side unseen, and is coming around to track and shoot in IRST- labels blow that very realistic strategy out of the water yeah?

 

An A10 flying at treetop level. An SU at 8000 meters on CAP. Labels give away an A10 that *might* get by him using a sound tactic.

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That's right: it depends on what you want to learn. In this sense a good sim has a gradual approach, where you can gradually enhance the setting you want. I guess if you are still trying to learn areial manoeuvring and getting to know the limits of your aircraft better, gunzo dogfights with labels could compensate for the very bad SA.

 

Of course, if you want to practice tactics avoiding detection you are completely right that labels wouldn't make any sense.

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It has everything to do with it. If someone in a russian plane has gotten to my side unseen, and is coming around to track and shoot in IRST- labels blow that very realistic strategy out of the water yeah?

 

An A10 flying at treetop level. An SU at 8000 meters on CAP. Labels give away an A10 that *might* get by him using a sound tactic.

 

I'm not for or against labels, but what you're saying makes no sense. To see the labels, you must be "looking" in that direction anyway - labels don't give you the position of something that is outside your computer monitor's FOV. And if the target is in your FOV, chances are the defending pilot should see the threat, whether in real life or in a sim.

 

The standard F5 external view would be unrealistic; it would cue you to the location of any aircraft WVR, whereas labels, you actually have to "look" in the direction of the threat.

 

You can also configure your labels in LOMAC to deny instant (and unrealistic) friendly/foe identification and or threat-type/range information, even with the label system in V1.02.

 

So your argument that labels blow "realistic" strategies out of the water falls flat. All simmers who are fighter pilots in real life actually say that labels add (in some respects) more realism to the sim.

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I'm not for or against labels, but what you're saying makes no sense. To see the labels, you must be "looking" in that direction anyway - labels don't give you the position of something that is outside your computer monitor's FOV. And if the target is in your FOV, chances are the defending pilot should see the threat, whether in real life or in a sim.

 

The standard F5 external view would be unrealistic; it would cue you to the location of any aircraft WVR, whereas labels, you actually have to "look" in the direction of the threat.

 

You can also configure your labels in LOMAC to deny instant (and unrealistic) friendly/foe identification and or threat-type/range information, even with the label system in V1.02.

 

So your argument that labels blow "realistic" strategies out of the water falls flat. All simmers who are fighter pilots in real life actually say that labels add (in some respects) more realism to the sim.

 

I also don't question people's taste , if they want to fly with labels it's fine ...

 

That opinion of yours about FOV is totally unrealistic, the pilot has but to turn his head around a bit to get more than 180 degrees SA in all directions... with labels you see a big blue or red sign 100X the size of the aircraft showing you where it is . There is NO chance you will not see it.

 

and no , it doesn't mean that the defending pilot would see the threat if he just happened to look there with labels off , in fact there is a lot more chances he would not see it , therefore he has to look thru his instruments, radar or EOS system on top of just scanning visually ...

 

Konny's statement doesn't fall flat at all in my opinion.

 

I'd like to hear about those "simmers who are fighter pilots in real life " of yours :P and see exactly where they "all" said that labels added to the sim's realism (in some respects) .

 

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I also don't question people's taste , if they want to fly with labels it's fine ...

 

That opinion of yours about FOV is totally unrealistic, the pilot has but to turn his head around a bit to get more than 180 degrees SA in all directions... with labels you see a big blue or red sign 100X the size of the aircraft showing you where it is . There is NO chance you will not see it...

 

I'd like to hear about those "simmers who are fighter pilots in real life " of yours :P and see exactly where they "all" said that labels added to the sim's realism (in some respects) .

 

;)

 

...which is why you have all your labels set as periods (".") and of one colour so you cannot distinguish whether it is friendly or not ;)

 

This effectively eliminates EVERY reason you stated against labels.

 

Look, my opinion on this is, "whatever floats your boat." But to say that labels are unrealistic is not fair, IMHO. Firstly, IRL, pilots have far more SA than simmers do - as pointed out by real-life pilots. If you want their opinion, just go to frugals or someplace and search up the forums. You'll find plenty there. Moreover, as Dayglow pointed out, the resolution of our eyes exceeds by far the resolution on our computer screens - the two don't even compare.

 

In fact, if a fighter pilot knew where to look (as in, inside the TD box), I wouldn't be surprised if he could spot the speck of his target from 30 miles plus out (clear skies, high altitude). Again, the resolution of our eyes can effectively be considered infinite compared to a monitor.

 

...and no , it doesn't mean that the defending pilot would see the threat if he just happened to look there with labels off , in fact there is a lot more chances he would not see it , therefore he has to look thru his instruments, radar or EOS system on top of just scanning visually ...

 

Really, so chances are the pilot (who probably is trained/practiced picking objects out with his sight) will not see it? Hmm, how would you know? You a fighter pilot?

 

Konny's statement doesn't fall flat at all in my opinion.

 

Yes, it does. There is really not one showstopping reason that says labels are unrealistic outright, or that labels "prevent" the use of some "realistic" tactics.

 

Why would you not be looking everywhere over a few seconds time? You don't look left or right when you fly? Sounds like a juicy target to me lol The idea that one's head would not be on a swivel looking everywhere is what makes no sense.

 

What is unrealistic is swivelling your head about and not seeing a MiG ten miles off your port wing, as you wouldn't without labels, and THAT makes you a juicy target because an Alamo will have no trouble killing you from that range. Again, labels make up for the loss of SA in simming.

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oh- I don't dispute the lack of resolution or ED's limited ability to make aircraft appear at certain distance. This is about doing the best we can with what we have. I choose to fly as close as possible to the real thing- using the tools provided. A dot floating around the sky at a distance that would not otherwise show an aircraft is silly. The idea is that an aircraft will get somewhat larger as you close. It may not be perfect here, but still real aircraft dont show up as a blue or red "." or "^" in the sky.

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So your argument that labels blow "realistic" strategies out of the water falls flat. All simmers who are fighter pilots in real life actually say that labels add (in some respects) more realism to the sim.

 

Sorry, bearing in mind the context of the snipped quote (and the post it was in reply to), that's totally untrue.

 

As you said you have to *look* around to spot things even with labels on, that's quite true. But you ignore the fact that labels (in their default setting) are either bright blue or bright red. They stand out from their surroundings. I've never seen a fighter camo scheme designed to do that in modern times. In this respect labels ARE totally unrealistic.

 

They are however a useful training tool and are a trade off against the lack resolution. They are also a useful tool to allow customers to scale a flight sim to suit their personal tastes and needs. That to me is the important point. It opens up the product to a wider audience. Afterall we do this for fun and relaxation don't we? So if someone's paid their money for the product and they want to use labels, they should not be made to feel in anyway "inferior" to those that decide not to use them. It's not "better." It's not "worse." It's just different. There's no right or wrong on this one.

 

As to why there's no servers allowing labels, well it's simply that's the way the host (and in most cases the members of his/ her squad) want it. Simple as that really.

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