How to Takeoff in the Dora

Oups! Wait.

Edited April 25, 2015 by Demon_

Late to the party as usual...

 

I can't speak on the flight model as I have no experience with it nor any historical knowledge. Just not a grognard.

 

But it seems right. Torque being dominant at low speeds, makes the wing dip, then the nose blocks what little air is flowing over the left wing and ...toast.

 

Same thing was happening to me. Whatever the state of the flight model, the instructions are a little vague and I think that's the problem:

 

At 160 Km/h, the tail needs to be coming up. By the time you hit 200 the tail should be level and *then* the A/C will lit itself off of the runway. No 3 point takeoffs.

 

What has basically been happening to you and I is a premature takeoff with too much back pressure on the stick at too slow a speed, because we are still holding the stick back (as per instructions) as we approach 200 Km/h.

 

Be ready for the left yaw as the tail rises, but be careful not to over correct for it. Thankfully the liftoff is pretty immediate, so you can be slipping all over the place, so long as you don't have back pressure on the stick you'll be fine.

 

As an aid, you can first power up to 2600 with the brakes on, then release for the roll without any adverse effects. This might help to give you one less thing to keep track of. I also power through the 2600 mark as I am gaining the first few meters of alt.

 

Hope that helps.

Can't take-off = Bad flight model?

 

Revisiting this after a few weeks away. The left wing dip as the tail comes up is what is getting me. I don't see it in the P-51, that thing lifts off real easy.

 

Most everyone who is not having problems, including the manual says nothing about aileron. I need right aileron every time to keep the left wing from dipping down as the tail comes up. It's become as important as the rudder for my takeoffs.

 

The other thing I'm noticing is that everyone says the tail should come up at 175kph, I'm hearing the screech of the tailwheel or mains begin bouncing well under 150 kph, as low as 120kph with full power, and confirmed in external playbacks.

 

When the tail comes up under 150kph is when things go bad very quickly. Anything less than 1/3 rudder deflection is not enough to maintain runway centerline, but the tailwheel has no traction, and isn't helping. If I can't get airborne before I drift off the runway, the left main sticks, and then the left wing dips and the Dora cartwheels. Stabbing the rudder more than about 1/3 deflection and the nose comes to the right like I need it to, but the Dora trips over its own left main gear, and the left wing drops anyway. Sometimes this is survivable and right aileron can get it level.

 

I also have bad outcomes steering with rudder only and a locked tailwheel. As I reason it, the locked tailwheel dampens the effect of both torque AND rudder. Thus, while the tailwheel is locked, I have to put in A LOT of rudder to have any effect. Once the tailwheel gets light and loses traction, this heavily deflected rudder suddenly comes into play, and as stated above, the nose steers(hard!) right, and the Dora trips over its own left main, and drags the left wingtip -- unless I'm on the ailerons.

 

So basic question -- is anyone out there taking off in the Dora without some noticeable amount of right aileron?

Revisiting this after a few weeks away. The left wing dip as the tail comes up is what is getting me. I don't see it in the P-51, that thing lifts off real easy.

 

Most everyone who is not having problems, including the manual says nothing about aileron. I need right aileron every time to keep the left wing from dipping down as the tail comes up. It's become as important as the rudder for my takeoffs.

 

Yes you need some right aileron. I assume you use full stick back to lock the tail wheel. In that position I have the top of the stick near the right hand edge of the arming panel.

 

The other thing I'm noticing is that everyone says the tail should come up at 175kph, I'm hearing the screech of the tailwheel or mains begin bouncing well under 150 kph, as low as 120kph with full power, and confirmed in external playbacks.

At 100kph ease the stick forward to neutral position, though still with that right-aileron on, so that it doesn't try to lift off early under stick-back.

 

 

When the tail comes up under 150kph is when things go bad very quickly. Anything less than 1/3 rudder deflection is not enough to maintain runway centerline, but the tailwheel has no traction, and isn't helping. If I can't get airborne before I drift off the runway, the left main sticks, and then the left wing dips and the Dora cartwheels. Stabbing the rudder more than about 1/3 deflection and the nose comes to the right like I need it to, but the Dora trips over its own left main gear, and the left wing drops anyway. Sometimes this is survivable and right aileron can get it level.

Above 100kph and stick-back removed you should have enough rudder authority but don't 'stab' the rudder, add right rudder positively, progressively and as quickly as necessary and if you put too much on ease off the pressure, don't hit the left rudder pedal to correct. You can dab at the right brake to help if necessary. If you put on too much rudder it will indeed push the nose to the right putting the left gear more sideways relative to the left/forward direction you are trying to control and it will 'trip over'. By that stage you are probably already beyond recovery so don't let it get too nose-left in the first place.

 

 

I also have bad outcomes steering with rudder only and a locked tailwheel. As I reason it, the locked tailwheel dampens the effect of both torque AND rudder. Thus, while the tailwheel is locked, I have to put in A LOT of rudder to have any effect. Once the tailwheel gets light and loses traction, this heavily deflected rudder suddenly comes into play, and as stated above, the nose steers(hard!) right, and the Dora trips over its own left main, and drags the left wingtip -- unless I'm on the ailerons.

 

So basic question -- is anyone out there taking off in the Dora without some noticeable amount of right aileron?

When the tail wheel is locked and you are under 100kph/stick-back you don't have much rudder authority which is why you feel you have to put in massive amounts of rudder. During that early phase dab the brakes as necessary to keep it lined up, if you put in rudder ready for when the tail comes up don't put in too much.

 

Be ready from the off to input (hopefully) small amounts of control to keep it straight from go. Stay right on top of it from the start. Pick a spot ahead (cloud etc) as a reference point or watch the runway edges. Act immediately you see the smallest directional change. If you let it get away from you you'll end up over-controlling to compensate and probably crash.

I was having a lot of problems taking off too. Must have crashed at least 30 Doras +

 

This thread has been invaluable, first I never knew the assists were enabled what a dumb ass thing that is. It should be On or Off for all A/C as it was off on the Mustang I ASS-umed it was off on the Dora.............Wrong!!

 

Next was using the slip indicator as a guide, very handy

 

Final was stick back BUT slightly to the right.

 

Oh and initially ran the takeoff in slow motion, twice, to get a feel for what I need to do.

 

So procedure that works for me

 

Straighten the tail wheel

Lock the tail wheel, stick full back but to the right a little

Bring engine up to 2.5k, no need to hold on the brakes.

As soon as she's rolling apply a little right rudder and hold it on, until she stops moving to the left or lessen if she moves right.

Use slip indicator as guide and position on the runway

At circa 150kph, center the stick

Be ready for the torque reaction, you'll probably need less right rudder

She should just fly herself off the runway but again be ready for some nifty stick work when she does as I find she rolls a bit, not huge like before but you need to be ready for it.

 

Sounds like a lot but I now cannot believe just how easy it is once you get the technique down.

 

Using the hints on here made it a lot less painful and if I can do it a monkey can.

I think the reason it's so difficult for some people is similar to the reason why riding a bike in a bicycle simulator would be difficult. You just aren't getting the feedback. However, the FW-190 does have an instrument that tells you exactly what you need to know:

 

 

You can see the action of the vertical needle in response to lateral acceleration. Watch the part of the video where he tests that function a few times and get the mechanism into your head. Then, when you are rolling down the runway, you can see it out the corner of your eye. You don't need to wait for the plane to start sliding left or right, you can see it starting to happen. Just stab the opposite rudder pedal.

 

Once my brain got used to this automatic response, I've been able to take off under a much wider range of configurations, mistakes, etc.

Nice video illustrating the instrument function

 

Thanks for that

Hi all,

As a noob, I feel my experiences to be relevant. All I can say is practice practice, practice. I've set up a really basic free flight mission for both the 190D and the 109 for landing/take-off practice. The 109 is soo much easier to take off and land, than the 190. But I've nearly sorted the 190. One of the things that really helped, Me anyway, was adding a little Dead zone to my rudder pedals. As if your not accustomed to pedals you find yourself leaving a little bit of pressure one way or the other and that can be fatal on touchdown.

On landing the Dora I find the key is speed and Sink rate. I approach the AF at around 250kmh with a sinkrate of 5-10, when im within 50 mts of the runway I back right off the throttle. This should put the speed as you cross the threshold to around 200kmh, flare off and aim to get the plane pointing, ever so slightly, above the horizon. This will also reduce your sink rate to 3-5 and your speed to 190-180kmh. This will give you, hopefully, a 3 pointer (All 3 wheels hitting the ground together) The danger now is a ground loop. So as soon as all 3 wheels are on the deck give the plane a little right rudder to counter the inevitable torque steering to the left. Don't be shy to tap the brake pedal to help the rudder (I.e. if she pulls left, tap right rudder) Use the tail wheel lock once she's straight and under the 100kmh mark. If you pull in while she's rolling offline you will definitely need brake pedal input to square you up.

If I knew how to post vids I would. Perhaps someone will help me there,

Good luck and happy landing,

...Guy

...For taking off the dora. This is a much easier operation. For me anyways. I taxi the bird forward slowly till im straight then pull the stick right back to lock the tailwheel. Ensure I have flaps set to take off (Ctrl-F) then go straight to full throttle. Dab the brake to keep her square and add a little right elevator to counter the torque. But the MAIN thing is to let her fly herself off the runway. DO NOT pull up till shes airborne.

Good luck,

...Guy

Having just about managed the take off and landing I began to wonder how they managed to learn back in the days its easy for us try and try again doesn't matter if we crash jump back in and try again how the hell did they do it in the real thing.

If you crashed you died or were badly injured only so many planes no two seaters.

How did they learn apart from getting advice from an instructor.

 

Just a thought

 

Heinz

Back in the day, you learnt in a 2 seater trainer. These were generally tail draggers so the principle was the same as their modern fighters. Remember these guys had a load of hours in trainers with the instructor behind them taking control if it got squirrely,

...Guy

Having just about managed the take off and landing I began to wonder how they managed to learn back in the days its easy for us try and try again doesn't matter if we crash jump back in and try again how the hell did they do it in the real thing.

If you crashed you died or were badly injured only so many planes no two seaters.

How did they learn apart from getting advice from an instructor.

 

Just a thought

 

Heinz

 

Considering the statistics below I imagine the Luftwaffe had similar problems.

 

According to the AAF Statistical Digest, in less than four years (December 1941- August 1945), the US Army Air Forces lost 14,903 pilots, aircrew and assorted personnel plus 13,873 airplanes --- inside the continental United States. They were the result of 52,651 aircraft accidents (6,039 involving fatalities) in 45 months.

Read the full article here

http://www.sodahead.com/living/wwii---scary-facts-and-figures-on-air-force-training-and-casualties/question-1776633/

I bumped into a paper from an old article from Sports Aviation magazine on advice for flying taildraggers called "Taming the Taildragger Pilot" by Budd Davisson (EAA). The advice in this article really clicked with me, and applying its lessons in how to dance on the rudder has allowed me a 100% non-lethal takeoff rate in the Dora.

 

The main takeaways from the article for me:

...the correct method of using the rudder is to displace or tap it slightly. As soon as the nose starts moving in that direction, it’s going to be neutralized and the other foot gets ready to jab rudder to stop the nose where you want it. So, you initiate the turn with a slight jab in one direction, stop it with a slight jab in the other direction. If at any time in that sequence the rudder pedal is pushed too far down or held for any length of time, the pilot can be guaranteed of a swerve in one direction or the other. [in the Dora, it will just tip over the main gear and drag the outside wingtip -- Nighdrag]

You ought to treat the rudder pedals as if they are red hot. You’re just going to hit them as long as you can stand the pain and get off of them immediately. Also, the duration of the jabs is in inverse proportion to the

speed – the faster the airplane is moving, the less rudder pedal it takes to make things happen.

 

Once the tail starts getting light, my technique is to be on the pedal and immediately off it. More than the P-51, the Dora's nose moves noticeably later after rudder application, and keeps going after they've returned to center.

 

Second most important take-away I got:

If the nose has been allowed to wander off to the left and the pilot leaps on the right rudder in an attempt to bring the nose back to the center of the runway, all on one big movement, he will build in a tremendous amount of inertia. The nose will be moving so fast and hard that it will automatically swerve right past the centerline before he has the chance to adequately stop it with the left rudder [and in the Dora, it'll just trip over the left main gear and dump the left wingtip into the ground - Nighdrag]. A far easier method to bring the nose back to the centerline is to first stop the nose in the direction it’s heading, i.e., it has moved left, so the right rudder is jabbed just enough to stop it from moving any further left. Then the right rudder is jabbed again to bring the nose back parallel to the centerline so you aren’t headed toward that bunch of freshly painted Lear

Jets.

 

This second piece of advice clicked with me and allows me to save even the worst takeoffs and landings. If I'm coming off runway centerline really bad, I don't hold rudder until nose tracks back to center in one movement. I jab the rudder and then get off of it to first line up parallel to the centerline, let the Dora settle, then jab again to get the nose to the right and drift back to center, then little jab left to take the correction out as I drift back over the centerline. So it's a 3 step process, and not 1 control movement to come back to center. Trying to swing the nose to return to centerline at speed causes the Dora to dump over on the wingtip, especially when fast enough for the tail to be light.

 

The original article link is here, and I hope it "clicks" for others struggling as it did for me: http://www.aerodynamicaviation.com/documents/Taming.pdf. [Or use your favorite search engine for the article "Taming the Taildragger pilot" ]

 

Also - another tip: use the mission editor to reduce your fuel-load below 40% for takeoff practices. It empties the rear tank, and makes the Dora more responsive and less prone to tip over the mains with rudder. It takes off easily at as low as 2400 RPM, so torque effects aren't as bad. Once I mastered that, I went to 100% fuel, and 2800+ RPM takeoffs.

Edited May 23, 2015 by Nighdrag

Well said mate, that's a perfect description.

 

I would only add, remember if you can those movements should be "in advance", you have to be quicker than the aircraft, you have to foresee what she'll do. But using the method described by Nighdrag you'll be fine. Only remember when throttle is push to take-off don't wait until torque starts to get you off the runway, use rudder before that happens, even before pushing throttle is fine. That's the only dangerous moment. But don't be shame with throttle, you can push it all the way forward. Many people has problems dealing with torque because they play with throttle, a little, now a bit more, no it was too much I cut... that's deadly.

 

S!

Nighdrag

 

Thanks for that, I thought at first "that'll never work you gotta be smooth"

 

BUT I was wrong.

 

I had a lot of problems keeping the Dora tracking but found that stabbing the pedals briefly as required works a lot better than continuous pressure.

 

I've tried the slam the throttle to the stops technique and it just does nothing for me. A gradual increase in the throttle to 2.5K rpm works best for me, then allow speed to build, that way I can stay ahead of events.

 

I am a relative novice but I can now get the Dora off the deck nearly every time (some are more exciting than others). I've noticed that she is very critical of lateral stick position when nearing unstick, a few degrees left or right and the wing down starts. Unless I'm quick I'm in trouble.

...For taking off the dora. This is a much easier operation. For me anyways. I taxi the bird forward slowly till im straight then pull the stick right back to lock the tailwheel. Ensure I have flaps set to take off (Ctrl-F) then go straight to full throttle. Dab the brake to keep her square and add a little right elevator to counter the torque. But the MAIN thing is to let her fly herself off the runway. DO NOT pull up till shes airborne.

Good luck,

...Guy

 

Agreed. One thing I would add is after bout 170km/h release the stick to center. DCS has a really good taxi and takeoff tutorial. Helped me learn in a couple tries. :thumbup:

So having tried almost all of the various configs/procedures to get the Dora off the deck reliably, I finally think I've got it nailed. Its never easy or always on rails, but I can consistently take off on almost every attempt now.

 

Despite saying I could not understand the slam the throttles to firewall and also stating that stabbing the rudder pedals worked on reflection I'm eating my words. I can get it up using these tactics but not reliably.

 

Soooo here is what I'm now doing

 

Flaps to position 1, takeoff, check elevator trim is neutral.

 

Throttle up to a bit around 1000 rpm and straighten it out using the wheelbrakes to get the tailwheel straight and align it on the runway, center or to the right of the centerline.

 

Stick back and to the right a bit, right rudder approx 50%.

 

Throttle to the firewall, smoothly but fairly swiftly

 

Eyes glued to the turn indicator, whenever it starts drifting (usually to the left) counter it with small smooth increase or decrease in right rudder.

 

At 150kph bring the stick smoothly forward towards center, the aircraft actually lifts around 170-180kph but your accelerating at quite a lick.

 

Usually before you have even got the stick to center the aircraft is flying.

 

Be ready as it lifts depending on the angle of the aircraft you may have to get the nose up or down quite smartly and it may drop a wing a bit but not drastically. :joystick:

 

Rotate too early its a left wing stall with the wingtip dragged along the runway. Rotate too late and she'll lift herself off the deck from the 3 point position resulting in a stall. Both (for me anyway) are non recoverable situations.

 

Using this procedure for me works consistently. As can be seen from this quick You Tube clip its not that pretty but it works

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EbPC8Pe0_CQ

 

View it fullscreen or theater mode in HD to see the instruments

 

I posted this not to show how good I am................I'm not, I'm below mediocre. I just thought if anybody is trying the Dora out for the first time and was getting utterly frustrated with it..................just maybe this might help

Edited June 2, 2015 by Weegie

Just to finish off for me I thought now I had a reliable method for getting the Dora up, I'd try both Matt Wagner's & FoxRomeo's methodologies for getting her up.

 

FoxRomeo on YouTube's video is a great help, he firewalls the throttle and rotates, lifting the tailwheel at around 120 with a little right stick input.

 

Video here

 

 

I found this works BUT the aircraft tends to roll right a bit when unsticking, as long as you're ready for it its fine, but you do have to be quite quick correcting and any over correction will result in the inevitable left wingtip dragging the concrete, followed shortly by a crash. The rest of his advice is great and a big help.

 

Matt Wagner's (DCS) method is to slowly progress throttle to 2.5k RPM and rotate for tailwheel lift at 170kph. This also works well with a bit of practice. I found that as soon as I started to rotate the aircraft lifts off right away. Hardly surprising as it starts to fly at that speed. I also found that he makes it look a lot easier in the video than it is for me, but I'm a rubbish pilot.

 

Video here

 

 

In all 3 methods (mine in the post above plus these 2) the biggest takeaways for me are

 

Use the turn indicator and very small changes to the right rudder input to keep it tracking down the runway, if it starts to swing much either way then chances are you're going to crash.

 

Remember it flies at 170-180kph, so get the tailwheel up just before that, or it will takeoff 3 point and probably stall unless you are super fast correcting.

 

Don't pull back on the stick once the tailwheel starts to/is up, if anything the opposite is needed. She will fly herself off the runway and any attempts to force her up will usually stall the left wing.

 

I guess what it comes down to is practice,practice, practice once you get used to the aircraft behavior then there are various methods to get the Dora off the deck every time.

 

Now the next challenge is to find a reliable procedure for landing it.

Edited June 3, 2015 by Weegie
Clarification

Thus, while the tailwheel is locked, I have to put in A LOT of rudder to have any effect. Once the tailwheel gets light and loses traction, this heavily deflected rudder suddenly comes into play, and as stated above, the nose steers(hard!) right, and the Dora trips over its own left main, and drags the left wingtip -- unless I'm on the ailerons.

 

So basic question -- is anyone out there taking off in the Dora without some noticeable amount of right aileron?

 

You shouldn't need aileron. You can avoid that mentioned problem (too much rudder when tail lifts, which leeds to a sudden yaw to the right and conclusively left wing down) by not using tailwheel lock. You have to be a bit more concentrated at the beginning of T/O roll, but you avoid that mentioned problem.

Edited May 29, 2020 by lion737

Just picked up the Dora yesterday and i find it surpisingly easier to takeoff than the K-4. guess my stick time in the K-4 really helped lol

FW-190D Takeoff again...

 

You shouldn't need aileron. You can avoid that mentioned problem (too much rudder when tail lifts, which leeds to a sudden yaw to the right and conclusively left wing down) by not using tailwheel lock. You have to be a bit more concentrated at the beginning of T/O roll, but you avoid that mentioned problem. Erich never used the tailwheel lock in the 109 and you don't need it in the D9 as well.

My proven technique is:

Rev the engine up to 3000 RPM with brakes locked (and the kite well aligned with the runway!). Pull the stick back and slightly to the right to lock the nose-wheel and apply a bit of right aileron. Release the brakes. Apply the right-wheel brake ever so lightly as the kite tries to wander off to the left. At about 100km/h move the stick gradually forward to neutral position to prevent the kite from taking off too steeply (if it does you will lose control and crash). Let it take off by itself, raise the gear and accelerate very gently to avoid a torque surge from the propeller. No rudder input at all! With my extended practice I can do the same at max. rev. rate.

Having read Lion737's suggestion to not lock the tail-wheel at all I tried that and could make it work at 3000 RPM, although it seems a less robust process; but at full rev rate I crashed.

As far as Erich Hartmann is concerned, I won't even dream of matching his skill. Besides he never flew the FW-190 as far as I know, and he was flying the real thing with physical feedback in his seat rather than looking at a PC screen.

Conclusion: for beginners I recommend the tail-wheel lock up to 100 km/h and a bit of right aileron, but no rudder at all. Once you have experience and "the feeling" you can try other options with less risk.

:pilotfly:It took me a long time to be able to take off.

I still mess up, but at least I can get up

most of the time.

 

My problem is I need more practice landing.

 

I experienced a really fun landing yesterday !

 

 

Edited July 9, 2015 by ctguy1955
had to add a song.....

I have trouble too

 

When I first got the 190 I had no problem with take off and landing. It was the 109 that gave me no end of trouble. Now how ever the 109 seem stable and the 190 is a fussy as the 109 used to be.

I am not sure what I am doing wrong but if I didn't change something then is there a setting in take off preparation that I have forgotten. I am old but I don't remember this problem until about two or three week ago.:cry:

 

 

An after thought.....I am using DCS World Beta. Is there any connection there?