The use of Mavericks to kill igla,s

Does anyone else use Mavericks to take out hand held sams?

It seems a bit if overkill to use Mavericks, but hey Its The only way to kill Them from a distance while not presenting a threat to me And my Wingman.

But how realistic is this? Does this happen in real life? If not what The sop for taking out hand held sams in real life?

IRL MANPADs are not fixed people standing out in the open. IRL the pilot has no chance to see a MANPAD as we do in DCS. If he has an optical device, which gives him the picture of a guy carrying a tube around, well, it is propably a guy carrying a tube around or an RPG. If the pilot has the information that in the certain building, at given coordinates, there is a guy with a MANPAD and is cleared hot to shoot an AGM at that building, then he will do so, I guess.

A-10C is not SEAD pane, nor it is very fast, therefore very vulnerable on SAM attack.

In real life, I believe army sends other SEAD capable units to clear the area of the SAM sites before A-10's are coming. If there is moderate probability the enemy have SAM, there are F-16 or F-18 with AGM-88 standby to deal with them.

But with MANPAD is different. They are hidden waiting for you and can easily avoid SEAD attack.

Yesterday I flew a mission and I run directly on one MANPAD flying on low altitude preparing for gun run. Suddenly I saw SAM launch, turn hard left, release CM, then I turn hard right and return back in the line for gun attack. I fired and killed MANPAD and maybe some more enemy units. Later I was looking Tacview record and saw that I actually avoided two SAM's and killed MANPAD in the same run. I was so proud of myself. :lol: This was pure luck. Many times in similar situations I ended up dead.

I'm not sure what exact RL procedure for MANPAD is, but I think it is 'hide and seek' game. Who first gain clean shot, winner. Probably A-10 pilot relay of other units to deal with MANPAD's or to report their location.

Is there some info on the forum that gives realistic numbers of manpads you could encounter, depending on the enemy's strength / type?

I'm not too fond of the manpad guy standing still, but to put hidden manpads this has to be realistic: what number of manpads, location in relation to the main forces, presence of support vehicles?

Also those systems are expensive, they don't have infinite shelf life (I think), so where is it reasonable to have ones and what is the time to deploy (if you come undetected I doubt you'll get a manpad shot on first pass)?

Also, is it possible that intel positively knows that a site is protected or not with manpads (and how many).

Thanks ;)

I think that MANPADs are not that difficult to defend against, at least after reading a few books (Hogs over Iraq / Kosovo) and recent articles (according to one ISIS shot at a Hog four times without scoring a hit, after which they left their toys and ran away in panic). The pilots describing their experiences were worried about them of course, but treated them more as a nuisance than a grave danger. Or that was just a cowboy attitude after the action, still the fact is there were no big losses (if any?) to MANPAD threats.

If you know or suspect they are there: Stay above 12,000ft if possible. Do not descend below 6000ft, then they are rather unlikely to hit you even if they fire. Then you have enough time to see where they came from.

If you know where they approximately are, fly over that point at 12,000ft+ and drop a cluster bomb on their head. They can't shoot you, but you will hit them.

EDIT: I read somewhere that's what real A-10 pilots do. They don't fly as low as most people do in DCSW if they can avoid it. You can start your gun runs at 14,000ft and pull off the target at 6000ft and still be effective.

Also: Always drop flares when you are inbound AND on egress. Even when they don't shoot at you. Constantly jinking also helps a lot. Don't fly a straight line for more than 2 seconds when below 10,000ft.

The only reason to really fly low is when there are enemy planes or bigger SAMs in the vicinity. And then you have to ask whether an A-10 should be there in the first place.

The use of Mavericks to kill igla,s

I wouldn't waist a maverick to take out a Manpad. I would something like a GBU-12 above 13000.

I don't even think a maverick can lock onto a solider.

I think it can in DCSW. Maybe not in RL though.

You could use the "force correlate" function on those mavs that have it.

But how realistic is this?

Not even a little bit.

Does this happen in real life?

No.

If not what The sop for taking out hand held sams in real life?

You don't. What you do is assume their presence and plan your attacks accordingly.

A typical Russian Tank Brigade will have between 40 and 60 MANPADS available (although any number from none to all of them could be deployed at any given moment). Remember a MANPADS is a weapon that can be operated by a soldier, just like any other weapon at a unit's disposal. They can be, and generally are, carried in the units vehicles until required.

In real life, I believe army sends other SEAD capable units to clear the area of the SAM sites before A-10's are coming.

SEAD/DEAD couldn't care less about MANPADS/AAA generally speaking. They have bigger fish to fry, and can't detect MANPADS anyway.

You could use the "force correlate" function on those mavs that have it.

In DCS, yes, for now. In reality no, you can't, it doesn't work that way.

In DCS, yes, for now. In reality no, you can't, it doesn't work that way.

How does it work then, I'd like to know actually... I mean if it's not classified. Does FC we have in DCS works differently than in the real deal?

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?p=2315372#post2315372

Post 27 on, but you can read the rest of the thread for full context. In short, no DCS doesn't model Force Correlate, or the Maverick in general, all that accurately.

Thanks, that explains the difference quite well.

Although, to Snoopy's point, using a Maverick on MANPADs isn't very realistic, I can tell you that I've been doing some testing on lethality radius of weapons in DCS and an AGM-65K has more than twice the lethal radius of a 2000lb bomb against soft targets (for some reason.. ). MK84 is less than 100m where a MavK is nearly 200m. If you don't have rockets or the proficiency to use GAU8 to take that MANPAD out.. fire a MavK into the general vicinity.. it satisfies. BTW.. in my testing I found 30mm HEI to have less than a 2m radius of lethality against soldiers.. so you pretty much need a headshot.

Although, to Snoopy's point, using a Maverick on MANPADs isn't very realistic, I can tell you that I've been doing some testing on lethality radius of weapons in DCS and an AGM-65K has more than twice the lethal radius of a 2000lb bomb against soft targets (for some reason.. ). MK84 is less than 100m where a MavK is nearly 200m. If you don't have rockets or the proficiency to use GAU8 to take that MANPAD out.. fire a MavK into the general vicinity.. it satisfies. BTW.. in my testing I found 30mm HEI to have less than a 2m radius of lethality against soldiers.. so you pretty much need a headshot.

Yes! I've noticed the same behavior. I flew one mission few days ago and there was one vehicle and many infantry units in radius about 200m. I've destroyed that vehicle with AGM-65D and expected that I will have to clean infantry with guns. I've got report that I've successfully killed all enemies. I've took a look, there was no one alive there. RTB.

On the other hand I have to be very precise when firing on infantry with GAU8. I've noticed that very short burst is more efficient then longer one. If the first bullet miss, the others will also.

A-10C is not SEAD pane, nor it is very fast, therefore very vulnerable on SAM attack.

In real life, I believe army sends other SEAD capable units to clear the area of the SAM sites before A-10's are coming. If there is moderate probability the enemy have SAM, there are F-16 or F-18 with AGM-88 standby to deal with them.

 

But with MANPAD is different. They are hidden waiting for you and can easily avoid SEAD attack.

 

Yesterday I flew a mission and I run directly on one MANPAD flying on low altitude preparing for gun run. Suddenly I saw SAM launch, turn hard left, release CM, then I turn hard right and return back in the line for gun attack. I fired and killed MANPAD and maybe some more enemy units. Later I was looking Tacview record and saw that I actually avoided two SAM's and killed MANPAD in the same run. I was so proud of myself. :lol: This was pure luck. Many times in similar situations I ended up dead.

 

I'm not sure what exact RL procedure for MANPAD is, but I think it is 'hide and seek' game. Who first gain clean shot, winner. Probably A-10 pilot relay of other units to deal with MANPAD's or to report their location.

HELL YEAH!!!!!

Now that's the Kind of Flying I'm talking about!!!!

The only question I have is what is a """MANPAD?"""

Is it a guy with an RPG? Or something more?

http://lmgtfy.com/?q=What+is+a+manpad

:lol:

Heck, NUKE the little suckers from orbit if you can! And set your code to C on the CMSP to dump flares when they shoot at you.

WC

Flying "separatist aggression" MP and I've got an ingla in the tail over 11,500 ft, is it possible? I was wondering it can reach max 9,800...:cry:

Was your altitude MSL or AGL?

It was AGL, I've checked also with Taview

Think Igla can get you to 11k, but you definetely were at its maximum range.

Not even a little bit.

 

 

 

No.

 

 

 

You don't. What you do is assume their presence and plan your attacks accordingly.

 

A typical Russian Tank Brigade will have between 40 and 60 MANPADS available (although any number from none to all of them could be deployed at any given moment). Remember a MANPADS is a weapon that can be operated by a soldier, just like any other weapon at a unit's disposal. They can be, and generally are, carried in the units vehicles until required.

 

 

 

SEAD/DEAD couldn't care less about MANPADS/AAA generally speaking. They have bigger fish to fry, and can't detect MANPADS anyway.

 

 

 

In DCS, yes, for now. In reality no, you can't, it doesn't work that way.

This may sound odd but Javelins have been used in such circumstances to take out a soldier so do not be surprised if in some cases something like a maverick was used against a soldier in a CAS situation particularly laser guided.:music_whistling: If it were a case of a manpad then I would not be surprised if a maverick or GBU were used in that situation although a scenario where insurgents were equipt with igla or stinger missiles would be rare. One incident I do know of from a book Mujahedeen had Stingers in boxes and were attacked by Hind gunships in a day attack but the Stingers were in boxes and so they were not used.(they had not been trained to use them and they were in a camp known to the Soviets)

Well we can play theoretical games all day long, it still doesn't change the primary general wisdom of how these weapons are employed or the logic that surrounds how one looks at using them.

If a pilot knew there was a MANPAD localized to a particular area its more likely it'll be a very general space and something that you'll want to hit with either an area effect weapon that will suppress it, drop some bombs on it that are big enough to get the job done too but thats more for the fast movers that can fly over these things and not take forever to do it, or hit something near it that'll do the job of killing or suppressing the threat.

One story from my favourite reference A-10s over Kosovo had one A-10 pilot acting as AFAC directing some Harriers onto Arty positions and was facing AAA fire from a wooded area that was threatening the aircraft he was vectoring in on target. This excerpt I believe is relevant to our discussion:

As I waited just west of the target, I again turned my atten-tion to the AAA pits. I had taken a snapshot in my mind of where the AAA was coming from and the position of the pits. They were visible only when I looked northeast. I did a belly check and saw them directly below me. I called on Fox Mike to Dirt:

 

“OK I know where those triple-A pits are now.”

Dodge interrupted my call: “Requesting mark one minute 30.”

“Copy that.” I turned my attention to Dirt: “Try to put in those Mk-82s, and I’ll extend to the northeast.” Dirt called back, “Tell me when you want the roll in.”

“Yeah, as soon as you can.” Dirt dropped his three bombs for direct hits on two of the revetments. Their explosions caused huge secondaries.

“Visual, in hot.” Dodge saw the mark and requested per-mission to attack. I cleared him and watched as his CBU tore through two more revetments.

 

As Dodge reset for his wingman to drop more CBUs, I began to focus on the AAA sites. I put my binos on the position and noted four gun pits. They were tiny and impossible to lock up with a Maverick, but I still had my 30 mm gun available for strafing them. As I considered my next move, I noticed a large truck and trailer, not more than 100 meters from the pits. They were barely visible in a tree line down in a ravine. There was only one reason for that type of vehicle to be there next to AAA pits. It had to be the ammo truck, a far more lucrative target.

 

That decision was easy. As Dodge 62 began his bomb run, I called up a Maverick. The AAA, which had been silent, began to come up as Dodge’s CBUs rained down. AAA exploded in a string of pearls just beneath me. This was a pass I wanted to make only once. I got a steady cross on the truck and ham-mered down on the pickle button. It seemed an eternity be-fore the 500 pounds of missile began to move off the rail. In reality it was less than a second, and as it accelerated towards the target, I pulled off hard and began jinking. It was going to take 20 seconds for impact, so I waited a few seconds be-fore rolling the jet over. The impact took me by surprise. The missile slammed di-rectly into the trailer and set off a series of secondaries like I have never seen. Fire reached for the sky like the Fourth of July.

 

“Unbelievable,” was all the ever-cool Dirt could muster. Most importantly, the AAA shut down instantaneously and Dodge 62 could call for his next mark. Completely out of bombs, I re-turned to place two Willy Pete rockets on the site. Dodge 62 dropped good CBUs before the flight returned to base.

So he used a Maverick to kill some AAA, or at least make it shut up. He did it however in a manner more in keeping with how the weapon was designed to be used. He also considered using his Gun to if not destroy at least suppress the area from afar. Not a MANPAD but its more like the kind of threat you face in DCS anyway with our static enemy units. A plausible way to deal with that MANPAD then would be if he's being transported by a vehicle you can simply lock up the APC with the Mav and take it out and him along with it. I know that in a few 476th missions you will often make a pass on a group of vehicles and on the second or third pass a MANPAD will shoot at you because the script spits one out after the group takes damage or loses a member. With the suppression script we can also area suppress any MANPAD that fires from a general location even if we can't pinpoint it.

One thing that always comes back to me though is that fiddling around trying to wipe the map clean is time consuming and the split second reaction of these pilots in real combat is all about minimizing their time over target because in reality the best way to defeat a threat is to never be subject to it, or minimize the time you are subject to it. That unfortunately is also a deficiency in DCS since AI has much better awareness so much of the surprise stealth that is part of real life tactics are irrelevant to DCS without the right scripting and even then I'm not sure its effective. As ever the strength of your mission designer is often the deciding factor in how realistic you can play your tactics while trying to still be successful and effective.

(looks like I'm back to making my trademark long winded posts) hello guys