Saitek X36 and/or MS FFB2 users running Vista or Win7

Currently I run a merged setup:

MS FFB2 Joystick (for precise X/Y-Movements and FFB support) with the Saitek 36 Handle (better grip and more buttons) and the Saitek X35T (original X36 Throttle). So I need to plug in two USB connectors and I need both drivers installed to run my new combined HOTAS.

In addition to that I have the Saitek Rudder Pedals and Track3 with Vector Expansion.

All this runs under Windows XP 32bit. BS runs rather bad. 25fps if nothing happens. 15fps in flight and 5fps (!) when artillery starts to shell my airport.

I use native resolution (1650x1050; otherwise I can't read instruments) but everything on low.

For a IMHO medium setup (AMD x2 4,6GHz, 2GB RAM and ATI x1950xtx) quite disappointing result.

Perhaps my system need a proper re-install.

I want to try Windows 7 but Im afraid I ll run into some problems:

The X36 support was canceled long time ago (although it used the same drivers then the X45 and it has the same functionality) and I only got the sidewinder software running by using a modified driver.

I fear losing functionality for one or both sticks.

For example the FFB settings of the sidewinder software. I need to be able to disable return to center forces, otherwise the trim function won't work properly.

So I'm looking for people who have experiences with one or both sticks under Vista oder Windows 7

Additional question: I dont want to keep XP. Do I need to deactivate the key or can I use an exported registry key?

Hello Atelophobia, I think I can help somewhat, as I have quite a similar setup to yours, though it's been, erm, augmented a bit!

Firstly I have my PC setup with Vista 64, I haven't tried Windows 7 yet, I'm not entirely sure I will to be honest. I'm having (relatively) low framerates considering my PC as well: a QX9650 running at 3.6Ghz, memory at 1600-7-7-7 and a GTX 260 at 685/1455/1100 with the screen at 1800x1440, admittedly at max settings, but I'd still expect a higher framerate than 20-30 in the cockpit.

Anyhow, back to the controllers; I too have the MS FFB2. This works with no drivers at all in Vista, and for me at least is set up pretty much perfectly as it is. There's no auto centering in game other than the centering applied by BS, so trimming works well (or at least it will once I get my head around it!).

My x35t was a very old version, without USB support. so I gave it USB functionality using one of these: http://www.leobodnar.com/products/BU0836X/

Basically I ripped out all the wiring and electronics, replaced the pots and switches and wired them all up to the BU0836X. So really I can't help you with the x35t as mine works quite differently to yours.

I like the idea of fitting a different stick to the FFB2, I've been looking at picking up a second hand saitek stick for that purpose (the x35t came from ebay as just the throttle unit). The BU0836X might have been a little expensive considering a whole HOTAS unit might have been just as cheap in some places, but I had the FFB2 already, and using another ebay find and some ingenuity I've made a set of rudder pedals from an excercise stepper (!) and a potentiometer wired up to the BU0836X, so that's saved me a fair bit.

Hello SquidgyB, very very interessting answer! Great reading, thanks for that. Better than 100 cockpit builder forum pages for me.

About FFB2 on Vista/Win7:

Great to hear you have no problems and the proper FFB settings for BS!

However, there's no way to determine FFB power and return to center power in the game controller settings, right?

Couldn't this be a problem in other games?

I don't worry about my X36 because I ll use a USB controller like you did if necessary as the X36 has no FFB.

(BTW: The controller you linked is the best I ve ever seen! Great link!!!)

I guess using such a controller board for the MS FFB2 would cause some trouble because you would lose FFB, right?

Another question: Can you still use the mode selector of your X35T as mode mode selector or is it some kind of persistant button now?

Wouldn't be a problem for BS because you can definde switches and modifiers but this is a rare luxury function. But you could compensate that with a 3rd party joystick programming probably, eh?

-------------------------------------------

About my Saitek / FFB2 history as background info if you are interessted:

Started with a X36 gameport around the year 2000. Quickly hoped over to the X36 USB as it came out. Didn't move on as I didn't like the design, found no addiotinal functions and hate the sping tension.

Two of my friends bought the X45.

For IL2 we bought the MS FFB2 as we love the FFB and the precision.

Now we all have combined sticks. We all use the Saitek throttle, the saitek stick/grip on the MS FFB2 base. Basically we only use X/Y axis from MS FFB2, the rest often stays unassigned. Will change for BS I guess.

The twist potentiometer we took out of the MS FFB2 is now a rotary next to the X36 trigger for the right thumb (pitch control in Il2 f.ex.)

The two potis from X36 X/Y axis were moved to the base of the MS FFB2 next to the 4 four MS FFB2 socket fire buttons (4,5,6,7 ?)

PS: I have the same trim problem like you ^^

Finally got it how it works and read everything about it but I fly better without it which says to me that I can't fly / use trim properly

Thanks, I'm glad to be able to help :)

It's true, there's no way to set the force of the FFB, or return to center. return to center seems to work well though. In windows, (and as far as I know other games; the games I use the FFB2 for are all FFB enabled) the return to center works, but as soon as I get in game with IL2 or BS the centering dissappears and it works like it should; the game takes over.

Loe Bodnar's device is definitely the best USB joytick solution I've seen. That's his most expensive product as well. If you're happy wiring up a 32 switch/diode matrix then you can get the same functionality for about £30, or less if you're happy with 10bit rather than 12bit accuracy.

Yes, you would lose FFB if you used the controller Board for the FFB2, I've left that pretty much as stock, but I plan on replacing the stick at some point and moving the twist pot to the base so I can use it for something else.

The mode selector on the x35t is not functional. All the electronics were removed from the x35t, and now leo's chip sits inside the stick as the interface to the PC. It acts like an 8 axis 32 button standard joystick controller. All I've done is wired up the pots to the axis, and replaced the switches with two way non locking toggle switches, so they act like button presses/ I think you can see what I mean a bit better in the pic below:

The sliders and switches on the base are what I intend to do next. The sliders will be trims for IL2 and any other 'plane sim I decide to fly. The switches are all two way non locking, so each switch is a neat way of getting two joystick buttons into a confined space.

The strange "rudder" slider thingy on the back of the x35t handle has been disabled too. As I've added a pot to where the red button used to be on the handle I have 3 axes on the handle, one for the main throttle, one for the pedals, and 3 axes spare for the 'plane trims.

I know there's a few youtube videos by the devs here that explain how to use the trim. I've not really sat down to watch them properly yet, I'm sure they'll be very informative! =D

I hope this all helps in some way, and I'm glad to see someone else shares my enthusiasm in modding joysticks to suit their needs!

SquidgyB, you can be even more happy. Nice post as always ;)

Bodnars devices are really cool. My friend and I also love his devices for racings sims as we love "live for speed".

We started to mod our sticks for IL2 but they are still unfinished in several ways. But now with DCS the motivation to continue modding is back ^^

I found some PICs I uploaded long time ago. Just for you as a quick impression. No good pics and no OMG-Homebuilt-Cockpit but I am really happy with it, it's unique and there's still much room for improvements.

You can see the both X36 X/Y Axis potis on the base, the X36 handle on the FFB2, the hole for the FFB2 light barrier and if you have good eyes also the poti next to the trigger (FFB2 twist poti)

We still need a cover the three potis or maybe replace them completley and to built the FFB2 grip fire buttons / coolie contacts into our setup.

Here's a better pic showing the place of the twist poti:

I wonder which layout you fly? As Im still very noobish it's hard for me to find a good button layout. However, without proper button layout it's difficult to leave beginner stage ^^

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About Performance:

Today I ll buy a new CPU today to get more FPS in BS.

Upgrading from Athlon64 X2 4800 to the best available for AM2 (not AM2+) which should be the 6000+ (2 x 3,1).

Much much of an upgrade but at least a quite cheap one

At the weekend I ll try Windows 7 including the optimisation hints

and within the next two weeks I should be able to replace my ATI 1959XTX by an ATI 4850.

Im curious how this all will turn out. Perhaps Im going to buy a complete new setup in summer if Arma 2 will be better coded than Arma 1

I guess you are right about the trim video. I should force myself to watch it finally... will do so later ^^

Currently I’m testing my Saitek X36 USB and DCS BS under Windows7 32-bit.

In the beginning I tried to install Saitek drivers and programming software (SD_WinNT_3_2_0_18master.exe and Vista 32 Software for X45), but generally speaking I had a problem to made it working properly. I was forced to search for other solution and this way I found XHOTAS Driver website and XD-Profile coming with Dhauzimmer's drivers .

I didn’t try XHOTAS solution but Dhauzimmer's drivers with XD-Profile works like a charm. The XD-Profile gives nearly the same possibility like Saitek SST (modes, advanced command, etc.), the only bad thing is to learn program it :)

I hope it’ll help you.

Sorry for may bad English.

I wonder which layout you fly? As Im still very noobish it's hard for me to find a good button layout. However, without proper button layout it's difficult to leave beginner stage ^^

To be honest I haven't settled on any real button layout yet. I've only really had the HOTAS/pedals setup in the last week or so, and I'm still getting used to flying/landing the chopper, I haven't even fired a bullet/rocket yet :)

At the moment one of the FFB2 base buttons is assigned to free track for centering the head tracking. One of the new switches on the x35t is set to Trim, and one for the landing gear. Other than that, the obvious axis assignments, one of the pots on the x35t for the throttle and that's about it for now.

Good luck with the upgrades, I'm still trying to figure out my FPS problems, I'm going to do a backup of all BS files at some point tonight, I did a lot of replacing when I changed the russian files for english so we'll see how we do on that front, whether anything was changed with the files being moved over.

@ Tailor

Glad to hear that someone, somwhere, updated the drivers for the old x36/x35t and made them useable on newer operating systems :)

e: Just done some testing, and it's all about water and shadows. Turning these down makes a hefty difference.

@Tailor

Yea, Dhauzimmer did a great work already since the "Allegiance" times.

Very good drivers which never caused trouble when installing - other than the various Saitek drivers.

Scripting was a bit tricky (first you had to create profiles as plain text in notepad!) but with HazardScript and another one I forgot it became very comfortable. I especially liked the possibility to calibrate my X36 in a way more precise way including rotarys.

Didn't know the site you linked though. Very interessting. Is it Dhauzimmers page? He only had a dynamic DNS page with directory listing active to download. Another great link in this thread.

And Im really glad there aren't only X52 users out there! Haven't seen X36 users for a long time

PS: Deactivation

What a crap. Did it according to the guide but it just activated the game once again, costing one activation. Although it never was de-activted. I did it because changing CPU exceeds copy protection limits. I was fed up and simply replaced the CPU ready to waste another activation. However, BS still did work without reactivation. Very bad system

What are your performance experiences with BS and Win7 tailor? Especially when comparing with your preceding OS.

@SquidyB

Lol... same here... no profile yet.... very few flight hours... only lots of reading and posting. But somehow I need to close the gap to the hardcore simmers :)

Im way too much interessted in other genres which distraced my very often from more simming.

About performance. Found out that I could also use triple or quad core CPUs with a recent bios for my M2N-E but I decided against because it would be a downgrade for the single core. I had a 2x4,3 and comparable or better CPUs with triple or quad cost a lot and I dont want to put it into my old system. I ll wait until I ll buy everything new.

But 78 EUR for a 6000+ duo seemed to be a fair deal. So single core went up form 2,3 to 3,1

I made some measurements:

I took a training.miz linked in the SimHQ forums. We use it to practise flying and weapon employment.

Before the upgrade I had 20-21 when standing still and starting.

20-40 when flying and after crashing you see a civil plane flying.

Looking at it directed to sky I got 80fps, fully zoomed out 50.

The values after the update:

20-21 -> 25-26

20-40 -> 30-50

80 -> 120

50 -> 63

Still not much more fps when standing and if there would be action I guess but looking on the relative improvements you can see the difference is really made by CPU.

Next step will be Win7 and some tools I saw here.

Even just reinstalling my OS could help as it is quite spamed by all kinds of applications and don't know what.

Last step will be replacing my 1950XTX with an 4850. Still no hardcore gamer setup but I hope to be able to fly in low settings smoothly most of the time.

Tailor,

I can't find any infos about the drivers provided on the XHOTAS page.

Can you use the lite and pro drivers for X36 too? Will the pro drivers be free or commercial?

Sorry for no answer, I was absent from the net for few days.

About XHOTAS: I’ve newer used it and don’t have any experience , only found and linked.

About performance:

My hardware configuration:

-motherboard M2N-E (like you)

-CPU AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+, 3000 MHz (like you?)

-3GB RAM

-NVIDIA GeForce 7600 GT (256 MB)

In game options:

-textures HIGH

-scens MEDIUM

-water NORMAL

-visib range MEDIUM

-shadows ALL PLANER

-resolution 1280x1024 (max for my monitor)

-cocpit resolution 1024

-no civil traffic

- no heat blur

I compare differences between both OS in training mission which I created (300 m above Gaduta airfield, no AI and additional static objects),view from cockpit, default zoom

WIN XP Pro ==>30-35 FPS

Win7 ==>25-30 FPS

Win7+affinity trick==>40-45

Generally like comparison between Vista and XP

There is a thread in this forum about Win 7

http://forums.eagle.ru/showthread.php?t=36145&highlight=windows7&page=2

Thanks Tailor, very very interessting!

Astonishing similar config now.

I also have a motherboard M2N-E and and AMD Athlon 64 X2 6000+

(it's a bit above 3,1GHZ per core)

But I have lower Ram... 2GB instead of your 3GB.

My GPU is a ATI X1950XTX with 512MB

Still waiting for the used HDD a friend did send me. As soon as it will arrive I ll also give Win7 including affinity trick a try (never touched Vista though)

Did you install Win7 32 or 64 bit beta?

Win7 beta build 7000 32 bit

I’ve installed it on second, old 40 GB HD, divided into two partitions. In Win7 performance test (scale of 1,0 to 7,9 points), my hardware configuration gets only 3 points, but it’s limited by the old disc. The rest of components have higher score: CPU-5,9/ memory-5,6/ graphics (desktop performance for Win Aero)-5,7/graphics (3D and gaming performance)-5,2. I think if I replace a hard disc, the FPS gain in games will increase.

The affinity trick works also on Vista 64, that’s why it should work in Win7 64 too, but I’m very interested in our joystick driver compatibility. If the XHOTAS or Dhauzimmer's drivers will work under 64 bit Win7?

Post sucks, they just don't get it. I have to wait another day for my new HDD as they were to silly to follow easy instructions.

Then I ll test it on Win7 too. However, don't know if I should test it wit Win7 32 bit or 64 bit. I only have 2GB of RAM so Win 64 bit doesn't make sense. On the other hand, 2 GB RAM don't cost a lot anymore. But I should buy the same outdated DDR2 Ram I have right now which doesn't make sense when I want to buy a new PC as soon as Armed Assaul 2 is out.

The copy protection is another thing that makes lots of tests with different OS, use of Betas and stuff sophisticated. Don't want to waste a lot of de- and reactivations (beside the fact that de-activation didnt work for me, consuming an activation)

As Squidgyb said, the MS FFB2 should be no problem under Win7 64bit as it works under Vista 64bit for him and about the X36:

There's Vista 64 bit driver on the Xhotas-Page....I really believe it works and I deeply believe such a driver is fully compatible to Win 7 64.

Update: LOL, just saw the prices for DDR2 Ram... 20 EUR for upgrading from 2GB to 4GB at my local store ^^

Do you know what's the max size of Ram the M2N-E can handle and which PC2-Level / Timing?

Do you know what's the max size of Ram the M2N-E can handle and which PC2-Level / Timing?

Check it here:

http://uk.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=101&l3=308&l4=0&model=1181&modelmenu=2

and pay attention to this text

When installing total memory of 4GB capacity or more, Windows 32-bit operation system may only recognize less than 3GB. Hence, a total installed memory of less than 3GB is recommended.

Check it here:

http://uk.asus.com/products.aspx?l1=3&l2=101&l3=308&l4=0&model=1181&modelmenu=2

Thanks mate! So up to 8GB.

After lunch I ll go and get 2x2048 Kingston PC2 5300.

Right now, I have 2x1024 Kingston PC2 5300 in my rig.

6 GB should be enough ^^

and pay attention to this text

True! Makes decision between Win7 32 and Win7 64 easier.

Already installed Win7 64 yesterday after I have lost patience.

I didn't try BS because I want to make the final install on my new HDD (should come today too) but at least all my controllers were detected

and work. MS FFB2, Saitek X36 and Saitek Rudder Pedals.

Of course I have no programming software, but this should be now problem. You always have 3rd party tools as last resort.

The FFB worries me more... SquidgyBsaid it doesn't cause nay trouble but I really miss the possibilities of editing the FFB-Settings. I wonder if the FFB2 will really do everything I want in every circumstance.

Update:

When I got BS I had:

Win XP 32

AMD X2 4800 (2,4)

ATI X1950XTX

2 GB RAM (667)

TrackIR 3 + Vec Expansion

MS FFB2

Saitek X36

Saitek Rudder Pedals

20 FPS during automatic start prodedure

Now I have:

Win 7 Beta 64

AMD X2 6000+ (3,1)

ATI X1950XTX (still to be replaced)

6 GB RAM (667)

TrackIR 3 + Vec Expansion

MS FFB2

Saitek X36

Saitek Rudder Pedals

Affinity Tool

31 FPS during automatic start prodedure

So, FPS improved because I can now use Affinity Tool.

More important, the FPS increase brought me finally to a "fluent" level.

Ruddar Pedals: work

X36: works (no Saitek or 3rd party driver installed so far, no programming tool neither)

MS FFB2: works (still Force Feedback, still correct Force Feedback in BS, meaning stick can be re-centered off physical center, althoug no Sidewinder or 3rd party driver or tool is installed) - as a bonus side effect I don't lose FFB anymore when ALT Tabbing (!). This is really great. It hasn't been a problem in BS as trim ("T") reinitialised FFB but perhaps it's going to work in other games too. Would be great.

TrackIR 3: works

concerning BS Win 7 was a full success.

Wow there’re really good news!!!

My friend also uses MS FFB Pro in BlackShark, but older, gameport version. During Win7 tests he had to install special 3rd party gameport drivers, which probably causes some conflict, because the game don’t start when MS FFB is detected by the OS.

Update:

X36: works (no Saitek or 3rd party driver installed so far, no programming tool neither)

Without additional drivers, Win7 recognizes it as a 'USB Human Interface Device'. Is it enough to work properly? Are the all buttons and axis recognized?

Without additional drivers, Win7 recognizes it as a 'USB Human Interface Device'. Is it enough to work properly? Are the all buttons and axis recognized?

Everything's there. No need for a driver for me.

Only if I like to have programming software I would have to try Saitek Tools, Joystick Tools or 3rd Party Tools for Saitek.

But so far I don't have a need for programming my joystick outside of Software. Played Black Shark and Arma only on Win7 so far though.

Wasn't playing at the weekend. So extensive playing, X36 and MS FFB use under Win 7 will be within the next days. I ll report in if there are any new

cognitions