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SEAD missiles .


eric963

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Now it doesn't matter so much which of them (the MPU's or the 58's) miss their target the most, the idea is that it seems pretty realistic to be so...!

 

If you'd look at some footage with other anti-radar missiles, like the dedicated AGM-88 HARM, you'll notice the same problems..., they hit somewhere close to radar that they are homing on, and not always, or let's say less than 50% of the times it hits on a 5-10m radius around the radar's antenna, so these anti-radar missiles have their problems in reality.

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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navigate to config/weapons

 

open missile_data.lua in a text editor

 

search for "Kh-25MP" (or Kh-58 or AGM-88 etc)

 

fourth line down or thereabouts should be a line like sigma = {10, 10, 10} (or some other numbers). this sets the missile "error" (CEP) in meters, expressed as a cube (ellipsoid?) centered on the object (not quite, see below). adjust this up/down to suit your realism factor.

 

notes:

 

1) even with this set to {0,0,0}, there is still some error. a hit is not guaranteed with small slant angles. for best results go high and dive the missiles on target.

2) the "hit zone" is not centered on the object but rather on the sensor, radar in this case. go to scripts/database/vechicles/sam + scripts/database/vechicles/sam/radar and search the lua files for "GT.WS[ws].pos = {x,y,z}". this sets the radar position from object origin in x,y,z coordinates, in meters. it is, as expected, centered on the vehicle footprint and above it a few meters. setting it to {0,0,0} helps a bit. use the modelviewer with grid on to get an idea of where it is initially and where would you rather want it moved.

3) comment the original lines and add your modifications with copy+paste or better yet, back up the original files before editing.

 

Thank you for pointing me to this particular file. I did many tests last night and now I am a happy owner of Kh-25MPU that has a kill ratio of 70-80% against defencless radar emiters!!!

:pilotfly:

Here is the fix:

1) DO NOT change line 2325 (sigma={10, 10, 10} ) we need this for random misses

2) DO NOT change the hit zone of the radars which are PERFECTLY and REALISTICALY positioned few meters above the radar vehicle (problem here is the colision model, thats why when you change the acuracy to 0m you miss again the target...you dont realy miss.. the missele passes through the antena)

The only number that you need to change (and I am 99% sure that this will be the fix from ED) is on line 2355 ''killdistance''. from 0.0 change it to something like 3.0. (kh58 has 5.0 and this is the reason that kh58 stil has a good kill ratio, and 20% of the time oversutes aswell).

This value is either a detonation fuse or the blast radius in meters. the old value (0.0) means that it has to hit directly the target in order to detonate which is imposible whithout a colision model of the antena.

 

I am realy happy that I have my missile back with realistic behaviur aswel..

BACK TO THE SEAD MISSIONS:pilotfly:

PS sorry for my bad spelling

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TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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I would also like to inform you that by altering config/weapons you will not be able to connect to any online server and you will get a message like ''connection interupted''.

The only way to fix this (if you didnt keep a back up) until ED change the values themselves, is to rename the weapons folder

eg. ''weapons_moded'' or enything, and then do a game repair from windows-start-EagleDynamics-dcs world- repair installation.... the auto updater will replace your ''missing'' weapons folder with an original coppy downloaded from ED (only 1.5mb) and you will be ready to go online again.

For SP you can use your ''fixed'' weapons with no problem...


Edited by TaliG

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TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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At least it's nice to see that issue being identified and solutions exists until it gets fixed. Really frustrating to see these MPUs digging holes all around a radar. Thanks!

 

Good point, let's just hope they'll fix this without having us modifying the files in order to have it more realistic!

 

 

Here are some AGM-88 HARM video footage tests, and indeed, i was wrong a bit..., at my first statement when i've said that HARM has some error of about 5..10m around the target, but it seems that was the only example i had and it's at this video:

 

 

While for all other vidoes of HARM, especially when it was first built, so it didn't get the latest upgrades, and it was still very accurate on hitting it's mark..., so after all there really is a problem in the way ED modelled the KH-58's and MPU-25's target hitting error because they are exaggerated too!

 

Here's the footage with the early HARM being able to hit their mark with such a great accuracy:

 

 

This one also shows a very high accuracy of some anti-radiation missiles:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1vORMHHlOs

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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Good point, let's just hope they'll fix this without having us modifying the files in order to have it more realistic!

 

 

Here are some AGM-88 HARM video footage tests, and indeed, i was wrong a bit..., at my first statement when i've said that HARM has some error of about 5..10m around the target, but it seems that was the only example i had and it's at this video:

 

 

While for all other vidoes of HARM, especially when it was first built, so it didn't get the latest upgrades, and it was still very accurate on hitting it's mark..., so after all there really is a problem in the way ED modelled the KH-58's and MPU-25's target hitting error because they are exaggerated too!

 

Here's the footage with the early HARM being able to hit their mark with such a great accuracy:

 

 

This one also shows a very high accuracy of some anti-radiation missiles:

 

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=I1vORMHHlOs

 

 

The first video shows training missiles with no explosive charges onboard and no proximity fuses that help detonate the charge in small distances away from target (3-8m).

 

In the second video you can see the effect of real munition. you can also hear the commentator talking about the proximity fuses at used 2:40 -2:60 :smilewink:

 

The only problem that we have, is the proximity fuse value of kh-25mpu.

kh-58 has 5m and agm-88 has 7m while kh-25mpu has 0m (no prox. fuse at all).


Edited by TaliG

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TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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  • 2 weeks later...
The only problem that we have, is the proximity fuse value of kh-25mpu.

kh-58 has 5m and agm-88 has 7m while kh-25mpu has 0m (no prox. fuse at all).

 

 

Well, they normally should have! Let's hope ED will fix it.

 

Anyway..., here are some pictures taken from those videos at a closer look, showing exactly what kind of accuracy levels does a HARM missile have:

 

e2nh.jpge2nh.th.jpga>afes.th.jpgafes.jpg

 

lw7i.jpg

 

e2nh.jpg

 

81ja.jpg

This one didn't need further details!

 

cesd.gif

 

0uui.gif

 

gx44.gif

 

 

As far as you can see, the AGM-88 has that error cube of about 1.5, 1.5, 1.5...,that would be an average for it (in meters), although we can see that it sometimes passes as close as less than a meter by it's target:P..., so it would be good enough to say that it has 2 meters (rarely more than that) accuracy for hitting it's prey. In our sim, within that "missiles_data file", the value of almost all SEAD missiles is set by default to 10, 10, 10, including AGM-88 HARM, the KH-25MPU and for the KH-58 also (as other people have also stated before), which doesn't seem realistic, or it's rather exagerrated, and i doubt the russians aren't good at missiles and their guidance systems...!

 

I've tested in game that a maximum of 3, 3, 3 (meters) error cube would look more realistic for a sead missile (than having a higher value) with a kill distance of 1..3 meters (detonation distance)!

 

So my honest suggestion would be that at least these values or close to them shall be used for the KH-25MPU and KH-58 and other known SEAD missiles, in the 1.2.5 patch, which should be coming...! They might not be real values, but at least they'd be way closer than the default ones, up till the time will come to put some real ones, because it's frustrating and quite annoying to see that your missiles dig holes around the radar not killing it..., probably just doing a bit of damage.

 

 

Let's hope the people at ED will have the proper time to modify those values when the time makes it possible!

 

Good day to everyone!


Edited by MaverickF22

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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ARM's are a sort of pet project for me. We finally got implemented that SEAD flights won't strafe SAM sites that are live with the proper Advanced Waypoint Command of RTB when Winchester ARMS. It still needs some work but I am working on it with the coders. Stand By to Stand By. My next thing is to get them to fire all ARMS before RTBing. Gimme a chance and the coders will come thru.

Dusty Rhodes

 

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As far as you can see, the AGM-88 has that error cube of about 1.5, 1.5, 1.5...,that would be an average for it (in meters), although we can see that it sometimes passes as close as less than a meter by it's target:P..., so it would be good enough to say that it has 2 meters (rarely more than that) accuracy for hitting it's prey. In our sim, within that "missiles_data file", the value of almost all SEAD missiles is set by default to 10, 10, 10, including AGM-88 HARM, the KH-25MPU and for the KH-58 also (as other people have also stated before), which doesn't seem realistic, or it's rather exagerrated, and i doubt the russians aren't good at missiles and their guidance systems...!

!

 

A litle bit more error in those pics that brings the 10m cube error more closer to reality,

I tested the kh25mpu with 10m cube error (untuched) and killdistance of 3 (kh58 has 5), and I got a kill ratio of around 70~80% over 20 targets. (very good in my opinion).

 

I've tested in game that a maximum of 3, 3, 3 (meters) error cube would look more realistic for a sead missile (than having a higher value) with a kill distance of 1..3 meters (detonation distance)!

 

With your numbers the kill ratio will be nearly if not the same like my resultes but in the sim, 3m destance is barely noticable (visible) so we will loose the ''not so accurate, but capable of destroying'' visual effect. :joystick:

 

GOOD DAY!!

1.thumb.jpg.a147a111d9bf5e2a82e78a6594ac847b.jpg

2.thumb.jpg.82dd496dee279ca0a65d63b818cc0d06.jpg


Edited by TaliG

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TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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ARM's are a sort of pet project for me. We finally got implemented that SEAD flights won't strafe SAM sites that are live with the proper Advanced Waypoint Command of RTB when Winchester ARMS. It still needs some work but I am working on it with the coders. Stand By to Stand By. My next thing is to get them to fire all ARMS before RTBing. Gimme a chance and the coders will come thru.

 

 

Thats the spirit!!! :smilewink:

keep up the good work :thumbup:

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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ARM's are a sort of pet project for me. We finally got implemented that SEAD flights won't strafe SAM sites that are live with the proper Advanced Waypoint Command of RTB when Winchester ARMS. It still needs some work but I am working on it with the coders. Stand By to Stand By. My next thing is to get them to fire all ARMS before RTBing. Gimme a chance and the coders will come thru.

 

 

We are willing to wait for it, as long as we know it will be worked out, we can't be happier than that for the moment!:thumbup:

 

ED, we bow before you, thank you very much for such answers!;)

 

 

Have a good day!

Mistakes, obviously, show us what needs improving. Without mistakes, how would we know what we had to work on!











Making DCS a better place for realism.

Let it be, ED!



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KH-25MPU finally fixed. And the fix was the killdistance value... from 0.0 they made it like the kh-58, 5.0.

 

We identified this bug along time ago, we also pointed out where it is and suggested what should be changed.

 

That would have been just a 1.5mb fix through the auto-updater, and that is why the auto updater exists in my opinion (regular and small updates).

 

I really start loosing faith on you guys...

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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That's now how things work. Builds must be tested before release, so unless there's a serious emergency for fixing something, you won't see a whole lot of tiny updates coming in. It's too time consuming to do it that way.

 

That would have been just a 1.5mb fix through the auto-updater, and that is why the auto updater exists in my opinion (regular and small updates).

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I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Is this in multiplayer only?

Is it happening all the time?

Are you able to reproduce this?

Are you losing the radar signal from the SAM after you launch?

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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Is this in multiplayer only?

Is it happening all the time?

Are you able to reproduce this?

Are you losing the radar signal from the SAM after you launch?

 

It happened to me aswelll.

It was in MP.

It is reproducible.

Radar signal is not lost(eg the radar blinks on and off for a sec)

 

It happened while I had a couple of AIMs coming at me from 12o clock.

The missiles actually shot their self down . and this is because of the fuse modelling.

Actually we had a laph with the guy that shot at me, he said he intercept my missile in purpose

before he shoot at me.

Anyway.. missiles passed close from eachother. Thats why the detonation...

Problem will be fixed if the fuse will be active , lets say only a sort time before reaching the target...

Having the proximity fuse active half a second from the time it leaves your wing it will be easy to detonate from sources that are engaging YOU...

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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When proximity fuzes turn on is a secret, although we know that for air to air weapons this happens right after a certain acceleration time - so they turn on very close to the launching aircraft.

 

In-game the only way to fix this fuze issue to shape the fuze correctly, right now it is a sphere around the missile.

 

In terms of SEAD missiles, if people are launching them too close to each other , then I don't know what to say :)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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In terms of SEAD missiles, if people are launching them too close to each other , then I don't know what to say :)

 

That way, it whould be very possible to kill your aircraft too:inv: HARM missiles are not bullets coming out of a minigun afterall, they are $$$.$$$ worth of amunition that has to be used wissely:thumbup:

 

I know it is a secret, but for game functionality, HARM fuses can be implemented to become active at the phase of deceleration lets say... (dnt tell anyone, its a secret:megalol:)

Oh, and for people that think they fire a minigun instead of a HARM, just put a ''delay'' rule between lunches (just like Vikr is currently implemented on su25t).

Just a secret thought...:joystick:

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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I know it is a secret, but for game functionality, HARM fuses can be implemented to become active at the phase of deceleration lets say... (dnt tell anyone, its a secret:megalol:)

 

My point is that we don't know, and as far as I know the only weapons that arm fuzes or payloads on a deceleration phase are nukes :D

 

A HARM can decelerate at any time, just by turning. There are other criteria for arming fuzes, such as time-to-go, which can be more reliable. However, such methods are not modeled in-game.

 

Oh, and for people that think they fire a minigun instead of a HARM, just put a ''delay'' rule between lunches (just like Vikr is currently implemented on su25t).

Just a secret thought...:joystick:

 

That might work :)

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

Reminder: SAM = Speed Bump :D

I used to play flight sims like you, but then I took a slammer to the knee - Yoda

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A HARM can decelerate at any time, just by turning. There are other criteria for arming fuzes, such as time-to-go, which can be more reliable. However, such methods are not modeled in-game.

That might work :)

Correct... how dump am I ?:doh:

Forget the deceleration..:doh: it will just make the missile useless when fired in closer range, eg it will still be in acceleration mode when it reaches its target...:doh:

[sIGPIC][/sIGPIC]

TaliG - 373vFS

 

“Do not repeat the tactics which have gained you one victory, but let your methods be regulated by the infinite variety of circumstances.”

Sun Tzu, The Art of War

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OK i will resave the MP Mission ive flown in 1.2.5. Tomorrow again ...there was a little Update during my Flight. Maybe this will fix the Proplem.

 

But now im tired im going to bed now. :sleep:

 

 

Good night :bye_2:

 

ISE

"Blyat Naaaaa" - Izlom

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