Giving your Sided Winder Force Feedback 2 Steroids

I've posted a few pictures before on my extended stick mod for my SWFFB2 but I'm going to try and combine all my mods to my stick here in this post. If you are interested in doing any of these mods yourself but could use a little more details let me know and I'll be happy to fill in the blanks.

I did three basic things:

• Increase the length of my stick.
  
• rerouted a base button to the top of my stick for a shift/modifier key.
  
• Increase the current to the force feedback motors to compensate for the longer stick.
  

Starting off, I cut the very base of the joystick and bent an aluminum tube I got at homedepot to fit my arrangement. I cut and drilled out the center of a bolt (for the wire to pass threw) to fasten the stick to the aluminum tube. By the time I was done it looked something:

Note: This was my first attempt at making a longer handle, I have since reduce the length by maybe 4" from the time I took this picture.

 

 

I didn't waste time making a mount for my chair as you can tell by its quality. However, you can see with this setup the four base buttons on the stick are pretty much useless. I wanted to add a shift/modifier button that I could easily access with one hand so I tapped into one of the base buttons like so:

Then made a small hole in the stick and added a button. I'm not terribly happy with the final outcome of this mod so I will probably improve on it later. For now, it service its purpose.

After flying with this setup for a while one thing became really apparent. The added length in the stick significantly reduce the force feedback and centering force effect of the joystick. Taking guidance from these instructions I made a plan to fix this problem:

http://www.simprojects.nl/ms_siderwinder_ff2_hack.htm

I will try to spare everyone the technical mumbo-jumbo but basically if you want to double the current to the motors you need reduce the resistance to the current sense resisters. This might not make sense to some but adding another resister in parallel will reduce the original resistance "R" by 1/(1/R+1/R). since the original resistance it actually 1 ohm simply adding another 1 ohm resister to the original one will halve the resistance of the original circuit thus doubling the current which essentially puts the stick on steroids.

Now some would say that this will be hard on the motors and the rest of the components of the circuit. And to that I would say, you are absolutely correct. However, I contacted the guy who originally did this mod and told him my plan. He actually added better MOSFET's and capacitors to the circuit to account for the increase current, but his setup required him to quadruple the force. Simply put, if you just want to double the current the the circuit board and motors seem to handle it just fine without over heating. If you wish to go bigger you might want to consider adding a fan or something because heat becomes the real problem. So enough about that here is what I did:

A flat panel resister looks like this:

To reduce the resistance as I explained earlier you just need to stack another flat resister on top of the eight that I highlighted in the picture below.

I ordered my resisters off ebay, I think I got over 100 1 ohm roisters for like $7 or something cheap like that. I have been using my stick with these mods, all of about a week now. I have not noticed any over heating issues yet and there is definitely a noticeable difference in the force of the stick. I'll continue to update this every once in a while to track if this mod significantly reduces the life of the stick. Right now my FFB2 is my back up stick (although now its the only one I fly with) so if it decide to crap out on me at least I got more use out of it instead of it just taking up space on my shelf.

Ur my hero. Nice work, bud.

Dammit, now I have to do this. However, I'm having trouble locating 1 ohm roisters... :lol:

Well I have about 92 left over if you would like me to send you some. I'll just warn you that I order the really small ones on accident so soldering them to the existing ones was a real pain in thee arse! You would be better off going with a SMD SMT 2512 6432 Chip Resistors. you can grab 50 for a little more than $5 on ebay here. In fact, I just ordered some so if you are in no hurry I'll shoot a few over to you when I get them :D

Edit: Wow I got the egg on my face I just now noticed you were commenting on my grammar... lol Unfortunately, that is not my strong suit :)

Well I have about 92 left over if you would like me to send you some. I'll just warn you that I order the really small ones on accident so soldering them to the existing ones was a real pain in thee arse! You would be better off going with a SMD SMT 2512 6432 Chip Resistors. you can grab 50 for a little more than $5 on ebay here. In fact, I just ordered some so if you are in no hurry I'll shoot a few over to you when I get them :D

 

Edit: Wow I got the egg on my face I just now noticed you were commenting on my grammar... lol Unfortunately, that is not my strong suit :)

All in good fun. Please feel free to violently scrutinize my spelling. It can be "creatively inspired" at times. Roisters was just too fun of an alternative to resist...Resistance is futile. I could keep going...

Very impressive solution and I'm looking forward to that mod.

I would really be happy if you made this mod earlier. Now I don`t know whether I should make PeterP`s mod with two or copy your system. If mosfets aren`t heating it should be OK.

Why didn`t you use regular size 1/4W resistors? It would be easier to solder if you removed old resistors and use regular 2 ohm in that place. They are so cheap that you can`t buy less than 5 because store wouldn`t earn even for printint a receipt.

I think it depends on what your ultimate goal is. If you want to replace the stick with a cougar, or something with a lot of weight, you probably want a system like PeterP's. Obviously it's a much more robust system. I thought I ordered a 1/4w resistor that's why I ordered new ones. You actually want to reduce the resistance so if you go the rout of replacing the original ones make sure it's a 1/2 ohm not a 2 ohm.

Sadly Chief I'm use to it, not sure if too fun to resist was an intended pun but touché brother I can't compete with that ha ha.

I am currently making something similar as PeterP, but I fear, that with edge and newer DX there will be no FF on lower unit. I am thinking about driving two units with single board, with upgraded mosfets and dual power supply.

But as you can see my electronic skills aren´t perfect so I will have to check with my friends who laugh at me for 1+1 ohm=2ohm:doh:

I will see then if it will be needed, but maybe I will use only your mod if it will be enough.

I am currently making something similar as PeterP, but I fear, that with edge and newer DX there will be no FF on lower unit. I am thinking about driving two units with single board, with upgraded mosfets and dual power supply.

But as you can see my electronic skills aren´t perfect so I will have to check with my friends who laugh at me for 1+1 ohm=2ohm:doh:

 

I will see then if it will be needed, but maybe I will use only your mod if it will be enough.

Ha ha, just tell them you thought they were in series and not parallel then 1+1=2 :)

It sounds like you and I are thinking the same. I was concerned how two combined sticks would work as DCS continues to evolve which is why I tried this mod. I'd say extend your stick like you plan to, then maybe give this mod a try, it's simple enough it's worth testing. If it's not enough then you have your answer.

I very much want to this as well. Not only because of DCS evolution but because of other sims.

I wonder if for a bigger stick and a warthog handle I will need bigger motors, and how much more voltage that would require.

I am wondering can you use this voltage doble to drive a PeterP type construction from a single board? With the motors in parallel maybe?

I am wondering can you use this voltage doble to drive a PeterP type construction from a single board? With the motors in parallel maybe?

Given that I am an ME and not an EE I can't really say with an expert opinion... But to me it makes sense that it would work, with the mod you are essentially doubling the current so you could potentially run all four motors in parallel on one board. Just don't forget to reverse the polarity of the other two motors.

The original evil genius that came up with this mod (reference link in my first post) gives some recommendations for better motor specs, as well as MOSFETS and other improvements to the circuit for dealing with the heat. I would suggest contacting him if you really want an expert opinion.

Another thing to consider is counter weight, you might be pleasantly surprised by the performance gain if you do this simple resistor mod in conjunction with adding a counter weight much like PeterP did. If you think about it just enough to get yourself in trouble, doubling the current gives you approximately double the force, plus adding the counter weight might give you something pretty close to what PeterP has achieved with two sticks. I know it's probably not that simple but it makes sense to me if I think about it like that. If I ever decide to add a cougar stick or something with a lot of weight I will definitely consider adding the counter weight. As its is, when I enter a stall my whole chair shakes a noticeable amount, if you keep adding more force via bigger motors and a better circuit you might find your results will be a little more than over the top, that's why a counter weight is a really good idea.

I am defently planing on the counter weight like the System PeterP did. The reason I asked is because I worry that using the normal engines at double power will kill them quickly. I was thinking that if I used the double voltage hack like you did, but to drive two motors per channel, that each motor would only work at it's normal operating range on a normal FF2.

That is quite an interesting mod.

I have one concern. How can the mechanical, plastic components deal with the doubled force and the lengthened lever? I don`t think that the plastic cogwheels were designed with such a safety factor.

I still love the mod and make me think about building an FFB stick with new, more powerful motors, and new mechanism, driven by a hacked SW FFB board.

Well I'm not a ME like Whiplash, but I've taken the MSFF2 apart and I think it's very well made. I think people wrongly think things have to be metal to be strong. It depends on the plastic but some plastics are crazy strong. Even the Warthogs gimball (granted far from perfect gimballs they are) are made of plastic and suport the weight and forces of a metal built joystick.

Also I can't speak for the forces of a double force MSFF2 but the regular one has adequate but not overbearing forces, I can't imagine it breaking with doubled force.

Still it would be interesting to see what other designs people would come up with. My reservations would be that mechanical throw and electical pot response would have to be kept very much on the same ranges because I don't think they can be calibrated at all with the MSFF2, I tried to use some saturation values to see if it was possible to reduce throw (wich can get exessive depending on how big an extension you are building) and the force position became out of sync with the pot position. I don't know if anyone has any experience or ideas how one would overcome that.

Well I am a ME (if it means sg.), and I am quite sure that the 2x increased torque will wear if not brake the transmission parts. It is not because they are plastic, but because they were designed to a much lower load. Due to the long lever the increasing backslash will be also more noticable.

Regarding the pot travel. In a new mechanism it would be no problem to make a simple gearing between the pot/hall sensor and the shaft`s pivot point. But again I am mechanical eng., maybe there is a more elegant, electrical or sw. solution.

Well I'll sure be on lookout for your design. :)

Well I'm not a ME like Whiplash, but I've taken the MSFF2 apart and I think it's very well made.

I have to agree. You could take a mod like this to an extreme, and I certainty wouldn't use the components in something like a real plane but unless you are particularly violent while handling your stick a modest extension isn't going to hurt the physical components within it.

My reservations would be that mechanical throw and electical pot response would have to be kept very much on the same ranges because I don't think they can be calibrated at all with the MSFF2, I tried to use some saturation values to see if it was possible to reduce throw (wich can get exessive depending on how big an extension you are building) and the force position became out of sync with the pot position. I don't know if anyone has any experience or ideas how one would overcome that.

To my knowledge every PC Joystick use a linear pot or hall effect so your degree of stick displacement is one to one to your digital input. I remember Yo yo explaining this much better than I can in some other thread. He said the aircraft in DCS are modeled with this in consideration. Therefore, the best way to model the feel of the aircraft is with a stick that is exactly the same length as the real thing. I can see how it would be a big problem but only if your stick is longer than the actual plane you are trying to simulate in which case you are better off adjusting your mount so you can make the stick the proper length.

Well I am a ME (if it means sg.), and I am quite sure that the 2x increased torque will wear if not brake the transmission parts. It is not because they are plastic, but because they were designed to a much lower load. Due to the long lever the increasing backslash will be also more noticeable.

I am more concerned about the added wear on the motors than the actual gears themselves. To some degree you are probably right but I would say within reason the difference in force is negligible on the actual gears IMO, which is only based on me using this mod now for a few weeks (2x force certainly isn't stripping the teeth off the gears at least). However, the backlash is a real issue, that's why I mentioned earlier that I don't think you would want to go much more than double the force, I could see the backlash messing things up internally if the you increase the force 3x or 4x because your using a cougar without a proper counterweight.

Regarding the pot travel. In a new mechanism it would be no problem to make a simple gearing between the pot/hall sensor and the shaft`s pivot point. But again I am mechanical eng., maybe there is a more elegant, electrical or sw. solution.

You could mess with the axis tune curves but like I mentioned before, why would you want to? You are much better off making your stick the right length and adjusting the way you mount it to achieve a truly authentic feel, just my opinion.

I think I may not have explained my self well regarding the throw of the joystick. The thing is the MSFF2 was designed as a desk joystick it's linear throw is quite shorter than a real aircrafts control stick but the angular throw is actually bigger. So when you extend it to a real aircraft stick lenght or near to, you end up with a huge linear throw. I would resolve that using some custom physical stopage to reduce the angular throw, and then would add some saturation to make the joystick responses bounds match the physical stopages. But in my experience with the MSFF2 the servos don't care what the saturation values are they are calibrated so that X or Y pot positon should place the stick in x or y position (helicopter trimming for instance), with saturation added the two positions won't match any longer.

I made this atempt to try to inlustrate this, forgive me for the roughness of it.

The top images represent from left to right: A normal desktop joystick moved to one of it's axis limits, the same joystick with a 50cm extension, the same but with it's axis limit with less angular throw so it's closer to a real aircraft center stick. The final forth image is the second and third superimposed.

On the bottom it's a crude and wrong atempt to measure the linear throw in each implementation. It's only an aproximation for starters it had to be measured in an arc, but it should give a rough idea of the diferences.

(Second and third are swaped in the bottom images.)

Ah I think I get what you are saying. So to test your question I made a simple bumper stop on my stick to reduce the overall throw. Then I calibrated the stick using the generic controller settings in windows and it appear to re-calibrate correctly to the new bumper.

Not sure if this is similar to what you were thinking. If you try to reduce the throw too much then it would probably be a good idea to upgrade to some kind of hall effect sensor that would increase the precision and resolution of the axis.

Yes that's what I tried to test before. But I didn't use the mechanical stop. I calibrated the stick to about 50% of it's travel (just for testing purposes) and then using the trimmer on the blackshark to trim to full deflected stick in sim (50% physical travel) the trimmer would then position the stick at 100% physical travel.

The Mechanical stop you did will prevent that but it might be making the problem "invisible" without through testing at less extreme travel ranges.

Or I might have to repeat my testing, I could have come to wrong conclusions. That would be good news.

And you are right of course about the pot sensitivity, that's one reason I had planned on using a relatively short extension using this mod, that way I may even end up not reducing travel at all.

In my tests this was usable as a center stick if the joystick base (or whatever housing is constructed) was just bellow my thighs. The actual diference from the grip base is pheraps 20cm (I don't have this assembled at the moment anymore). The video doesn't show it very well because I was showcassing a diferent aspect of it.

The reason I'm interested in the mod is because I want to use the Warthog grip instead of that cheap plastic one. :)

I calibrated the stick to about 50% of it's travel (just for testing purposes) and then using the trimmer on the blackshark to trim to full deflected stick in sim (50% physical travel) the trimmer would then position the stick at 100% physical travel.

I might be misunderstanding you again and its probably because I have never played blackshark before, but by setting the trimmer to full travel are you saying that you are essentially setting it to the default axis tune setting without any adjustments to the saturation or curves?

By adding the bump stop to my stick and re-calibrating it I was able to effectively reduce the displacement of the stick while maintaining a 100% input travel to the sim all the while my axis are tuned to their default setting in DCS.

I'll try to make a video of it.