How much to make a module for DCS.

What are you basing those numbers on? I'm not saying they're right or wrong, I'm just curious.

I got a quote from a 3D designer.

I got a quote from a 3D designer.

What level of detail? Something of a normal game-level or actual study-simulation level?

The more historical inaccuracies there are and more details to model the more work there will be and higher the cost.

I think the more important part of a add-on has the internal code, features and functionality. Internal and external 3D model help, but I think you need search experiment C+ programmers and engineers before a good 3D designer. DCS world has a exigent environment and an very steep learning time.

There are plenty of 3DArtists out there....Its the programmers that are the toughest to come by. A highly skilled programmer/software engineer is most often already taken and up to his ears in work because the company would rather double/triple his pay than lose him to someone else.

What level of detail? Something of a normal game-level or actual study-simulation level?

 

The more historical inaccuracies there are and more details to model the more work there will be and higher the cost.

Our level of detail.

I'll throw a number from my imagination: 25-35k

For full fidelity simulation.

I'll throw a number from my imagination: 25-35k

 

For full fidelity simulation.

Although Im not going to quote how much we pay people that number is way off ...

It would depend hugely upon the aircraft, systems fidelity and art quality.

For something like the MiG-21 though, I reckon you'd be looking at $200,000 minimum.

In terms of man hours, think how many Rudel has put in to counting rivets alone!

You're looking at paying 4-5 guys wages for ~2 years.

double post

I'll throw a number from my imagination: 25-35k

 

For full fidelity simulation.

That's not a years wages for someone suitably skilled. It also suggests the existing projects are overrunning by some insane amount

Is Mig-21 team just : Cobra, Rudel, Dolphin, prgrmer #2 ?

Is Mig-21 team just : Cobra, Rudel, Dolphin, prgrmer #2 ?

http://www.leatherneck-sim.com/team/

Exactly. Divide 1 year by that number (4) and you get the number of months (3) someone above said it takes to make a full fidelity model. So clearly that's incorrect by a silly amount.

I guess a guy in his bedroom days are well and truly over.

I wonder what type of hardware would be required I recon an off the self 500 euro/dollar machine would not cut it. LoL my friend who works in the Industry spent something like eight thousand just on his machine with out The other equipment he purchased. there are some excellent software packages he said that help reduce the time it takes to produce a 3D model

I wouldn't be suprised to see module costs on a single PFM+ASM plane to be well in excess of €250,000 for a 4/5 man team over 18-24 months*.

Of course, those costs would be based upon an average wages for what would be a experienced or senior programmer in the general industry**.

It's unfortunately generally accepted the games industry pays under the going rate, and people are also geneally inclined to accept lesser wage packets to work on projects they actually enjoy and have a strong interest in.

*Assuming everyone is working on the module for 7 hours 5 days a week, which is unlikely as development isn't always going to be concurrent amongst all team members.

**Assumption based upon what my colleages and I get paid as software developers in "general" development roles.

Edit: Of course, this is all speculation, as no-one is going to ever be specific about how much an aircraft costs while DCS is a live product enviroment. Maybe in 10 years once we're onto DCS 2 :P

I am not looking to make a module or I am I looking for specific Confidential Information about a particular Module. I realise its a very open ended question how long is a piece of string etc.

I have always been interested in all aspects of computer simulation design

It really does fascinate me. The other day I read an article about the cost of console games, some went in to the tens of millions. It made me wonder how much a DCS module would cost as the engine is provided by ED you would Then just have to focus on your chosen plane tank heli etc.

I would assume there would be a massive saving just on that alone

What DSC/ED has done with the modular concept is nothing short of genius IMO.

I agree 100%. Too bad modules aren't released more often. New planes come out for FSX every few weeks. Sure would be great if that happened for DCS, but i do understand there is way more to do for a DCS addon. I'm fascinated with the design as well, but I don't really know much more than basic texture work, lol. Ill just say this... An F-16C from somewhere between Block 25/32 to Block 50/52 would probably make the most cash. I play Falcon BMS as well, and everyone I have discussed DCS with says they would gladly make the change if someone would release a Viper. That's a lot of people, and many of them already have sim pits built. A viper pit would be a fun build for DCS players. So many have been done already, so data and parts are an easy find. We need more modules added to Helios for builders, but it would be easy to do. It seems like everyone is steering clear of the F-16C for some reason. Wonder why...? We need more choppers like the OH-58D, Blackhawk, Pavehawk, and especially the AH-1S to keep the cold war helis going. The AH-1S would be a really easy module for Belsimtek after the AH-1G is finished. Then, at least we would have anti-tank capability. Unfortunately, DCS modules keep pointing to older planes and helis with less system, but the systems are the most educational aspect of aircraft sims. I find learning new aircraft systems to be the most fun part of playing with sims, and certainly the most valuable to me as a real-world pilot. I like this sim because of the modern combat and the systems of the A-10C. We need more modern full-fidelity planes and choppers. WW2 sims are fun, but after the years they have gotten boring, but the graphics are great, lol. There's so many great WW2 sims, IL-2 being one of the best ever, even though the systems aren't 100% accurate. But, a REALISTIC, full-fidelity, modern sim with many flyable aircraft was not available until now. DCS is already a gold mine as far as sims are concerned, but profits could increase exponentially if the right modules were made. People are buying aircraft they really don't care about, just so they can fly something new in DCS. I've done it. Hopefully someone will start making some good jets and helis soon. I'm not knocking whats out there under construction right now, but the subjects being modeled at the moment strike me as very random choices. Some of the more obvious choices would generate much more profit...

I agree 100%. Too bad modules aren't released more often. New planes come out for FSX every few weeks. Sure would be great if that happened for DCS, but i do understand there is way more to do for a DCS addon. I'm fascinated with the design as well, but I don't really know much more than basic texture work, lol. Ill just say this... An F-16C from somewhere between Block 25/32 to Block 50/52 would probably make the most cash. I play Falcon BMS as well, and everyone I have discussed DCS with says they would gladly make the change if someone would release a Viper. That's a lot of people, and many of them already have sim pits built. A viper pit would be a fun build for DCS players. So many have been done already, so data and parts are an easy find. We need more modules added to Helios for builders, but it would be easy to do. It seems like everyone is steering clear of the F-16C for some reason. Wonder why...? We need more choppers like the OH-58D, Blackhawk, Pavehawk, and especially the AH-1S to keep the cold war helis going. The AH-1S would be a really easy module for Belsimtek after the AH-1G is finished. Then, at least we would have anti-tank capability. Unfortunately, DCS modules keep pointing to older planes and helis with less system, but the systems are the most educational aspect of aircraft sims. I find learning new aircraft systems to be the most fun part of playing with sims, and certainly the most valuable to me as a real-world pilot. I like this sim because of the modern combat and the systems of the A-10C. We need more modern full-fidelity planes and choppers. WW2 sims are fun, but after the years they have gotten boring, but the graphics are great, lol. There's so many great WW2 sims, IL-2 being one of the best ever, even though the systems aren't 100% accurate. But, a REALISTIC, full-fidelity, modern sim with many flyable aircraft was not available until now. DCS is already a gold mine as far as sims are concerned, but profits could increase exponentially if the right modules were made. People are buying aircraft they really don't care about, just so they can fly something new in DCS. I've done it. Hopefully someone will start making some good jets and helis soon. I'm not knocking whats out there under construction right now, but the subjects being modeled at the moment strike me as very random choices. Some of the more obvious choices would generate much more profit...

An F16 is something that we have discussed in the past and sadly all but ruled out. There are a number of reasons for it but BMS is def right up there. It's a major development risk.

Making the F16 to dcs standards is a major undertaking. Not least because large chunks are still classified.

Any modern fighter being completed to DCS standards has issues with availability of information and what we are allowed to include, something we know all too well with Typhoon. I don't think you will ever get a modern front line fighter in full fidelity without agreement of the relevant air force and in some areas at least being quite heavily redacted.

We sincerely hope that our war birds will start rolling reasonably quickly, certainly a minimum of 2 a year. But we are in the foundation stage for those as they have only been recently announced and will take some refining.

Helos is not our area of expertise, that said I'll not rule it out for the future.

We are really excited about the modules we are working on, even if they aren't always the obvious choices :)

Pman

Is the F-16C any more classified than the F/A-18C?

I would have thought either of them would have more declassified material available for them than for the Typhoon!

Is the F-16C any more classified than the F/A-18C?

 

I would have thought either of them would have more declassified material available for them than for the Typhoon!

Whether something is classified or not has no bearing on age or the like, its all to do with the military that uses it.

On top of that we have some pretty good contacts in the UK ;)

If you have agreements with the military forces concerned there is no reason you couldnt do a redacted version. But for us access is another major obstacle other than BMS

Pman

I can see how access to an F-16 might be an issue here in the UK but for what it's worth I think the BMS crowd would love a Viper in DCS...

They could jump right in and provide support to various aircraft types that would be player controlled, be it CAP, Escort or SEAD. When the F/A-18C and Typhoon come out as well, there would be more options for combined operations - not to mention the imoroved sound and graphics engines.

I understand why VEAO don't want to tackle it, but I wish ED or another third party with better access would.

If done well, I can't see it being anything other than a massive success.

I can see how access to an F-16 might be an issue here in the UK but for what it's worth I think the BMS crowd would love a Viper in DCS...

If it would be better. And what's better is not objective, but based on individual preferences. Even if you created F-16 that would mach BMS level of simulation (or even surpass it), there are still things that DCS lacks and BMS has (like there are things that DCS has and BMS lacks)... i.e. IADS, Dynamic Campaign, multiple theaters..etc... People who would emphasize these aspects would not switch because BMS is, for them, a more complete package.

Also people might not want to make the switch (redo their keybinds, external monitor setup, learn the DCS way of making things...) just to fly another F-16...

That's why F-16 is risky. You're competing with an established brand.

Yes, people play BMS because it simulates a war not just because it simulates the f16.

BMS people would move over and fly anything if there was a reason to use the modules, i mean i would love such a dynamic environment even just flying the mi-8 and huey resueing ejected pilots it would enrich all existing and future modules.

DCS:WW2 was already receiving other funding at the time of the Kickstarter. Luthier made it clear that the $100,000 was just to give them enough time to polish what they were already building.

 

To give an idea of the true cost of game development (in North America), the studios I've worked at have typically had a man-month cost of around $11,000.

 

That's not what each developer gets paid - it's just what the company has to spend to keep an average employee employed. That includes wages, medical coverage, pension contributions and the associated costs of non-development-teams such as HR and admin plus the costs of electricity, utilities and all of the rest.

 

That means that even a 10 man team costs ~$110,000 per month.

 

My current team is 60+ people, so go do the math. ;)

 

Let's assume that it's WAY cheaper to develop games in Russia and the Ukraine. Even if development costs HALF of that, a 10 man team is still going to burn through around $50,000 per month.

 

I don't know the real numbers for ED and Belsimtek, but my point is just that software development is REALLY expensive and the numbers being thrown around are WAY off base according to my own experience.

Pizzi is likely closer to the truth - I am an account exec in software design - web - web app and mobile... we operate on a blended rate of $120 per hour... that number is a reflection of our burden which includes everything from capital overhead to HR drivers like salaries and benefits... our burden is roughly $90/hour so you can imagine profit can be thin in digital as the write offs are pretty high.

We use agile estimation where i am at so it would be hard to guess how many points are outstanding on builds like the sabre or mig but i can guarantee you the idea that 15K is enough is waaaaaaaaaaaaaay short of reality. my guess is that these projects are mostly labors of love as opposed to strong business investments.