DCS WWII: Europe 1944

Holy moly you guys.

Sorry, I'm still in the middle of a move. There's no internet hooked up at the new place yet, so this makes communication difficult.

Taking these a few pages at a time. Got a couple more hours, so hopefully I'll get through everything.

Please tell me that multiplayer will be included!.

Multiplayer is definitely included in the project! We have a lot of ideas, and we even have some old colleagues that have lots of experience making multiplayer great, but this is one area where we're not making any concrete promises.

After we did all the thinking and planned things out on paper, we realized we were looking at a huge project of its own. We can't afford to plug it into the core Kickstarter tier because it more than doubles the money we'll need. We don't want to risk not reaching even the initial goal because of this. The basic tier is supposed to be basic, after all.

We can only start rehiring old friends and programming and designing away once we hit larger stretch goals, but there's another problem there. This is an entirely new codebase for our old programmers, and multiplayer is extremely hard to program and test and perfect. This is the riskiest component of the entire project with both time and budget. If we make hard kickstarter promises about multiplayer, we run the risk of sinking the entire project by not meeting them on time.

So we're not going to promise anything now, or list any multiplayer features in kickstarter. If we hit larger stretch goals, we will work away on expanding and improving multiplayer, but there is a chance that a large comprehensive multiplayer update won't be ready in time for the initial DCS WWII release.

Just a pinch of crew management (think B-17 Flying Fortress) would be absolutely amazing.

We're trying not to go feature creep on this project. This is definitely something we've thought about, but at this time we're trying to go lean.

So FM goes through inspector Yo-Yo? :D

Yup.

Good to cya back Luthier. Since this is going to be a European Campaign that could include B17's, is there any chance the map will be large enough that the bombers will be able to takeoff/RTB from Britain or France. If not how big a map do you plan to build, and what are your thoughts on expanding the map for a realistic bombing campaign at a later date? I'm not a huge fan of the current DCS terrain, but I'm hoping the new EDGE graphic engine will allow you to develop an immersive WW2 terrain.

Making terrain in EDGE is kind of an interesting process.

It takes almost no time to define things like shorelines and elevation. But then making that terrain look good takes a tremendous effort. There are areas with coarse detail and areas with very fine detail. For example, our Pointe du Hoc is virtually one-for-one with all the bunkers, trenches, cliffs, bomb craters, etc. Just that one little triangle took several weeks to make. Conversely, some random piece of coastline or an out of the way village are done in a few minutes. They look generic and if you were to compare them to the real thing, you'd see lots of differences.

Then there are areas that aren't hand-built at all. They are intended as a background, something you see far off on the horizon while you fly over a more important area. If you were to take the time to fly over there, you'd see a barren landscape that isn't intended to be seen up close. In other sims this would be the area beyond the map edge that was not done at all; in EDGE we just define it so looking towards the map edge looks good.

So, what I'm saying is, at this time we've only defined Normandy as hand-built.

As you said the aircraft will be able to insert into DCS World, but what about map, AI vehicles, ships, aircraft...? Can we plug all that in DCS World and make true sandbox or there will be some limitations?

I'm not sure if this can be done manually. We only discussed module compatibility, i.e. cross-plugging things we ourselves make to be compatible.

My first wish would be to see RRG dump the icons that act as objects on the map, and come up with a way to allow players to visually see the objects as they are, intuitively manipulate its orientation and move it around to the exact location we want on the map in DCS WWII mission editor. ED ain't gonna let us do it in theirs, so please make this a possibility. It is really frustrating having to go back and forth between in-game and ME a dozens of times just to move the vehicles around on a farp.

We don't have a budget for a mission builder programmer or artist.

If any changes are made to the editors, they'd have to be done by ED.

It all sounds rather over ambitious to me. I'd love to see this be achieved in single year. But i won't be holding my breath.

Lots of experienced people from another sim coming together to work in parallel.

It's also somewhat easier to make things now with the P-51 and Dora already done. When P-51 was being done, most of the systems had to be written from scratch. With something like a Bf.109 now, we can use a lot of P-51 code which speeds things up by a huge factor.

Do you guys have the permission to use aircraft models and textures from Cliffs of Dover? That could bring us early WW2 scenarios faster.

Imho they already have something WIP from their previous projects in their drawers :thumbup:

Nope. Not only do we not have permission, we are absolutely not going to reuse a single asset from any old project. We know that we will be challenged on every single thing that looks remotely similar and have to prove to the current copyright owner that we made everything from scratch.

Following that logic we would have 8 different installs of DCS currently. Also it is a fallacy, because in order for modules to be compatible between the two, they both have to be using the same code version.

 

So basically what seems to be doing is Duplicating DCS - just for providing Alternate GUI's. It doesn't make sense to me at all. There are better ways to distinguish between the Two products than to have 2 installs that are 99% the same.

 

IMO (not that that means much) WW2 should be following the modular approach we already have, with maybe it's own GUI resources as part of the WW2 module for the DCS core. Start with the DCS:WW2 icon? Arrive in a WW2 GUI customised for WW2. Start with DCS World Icon, arrive in the GUI we have now.

 

Each GUI will allow switching between both modes. This Would affect what is available in the ME too, related to time period. With another free for all mode, where anything goes, all modules and Time periods enabled for selection.

 

It has already been said that this will sort of be possible in either World or WW2 so why would I want to install both? Why separate them? It would be better to have them auto select WW2 or other GUI, on install depending on what the user believes they are downloading. DCS remains the same underneath.

 

Nate

This!

Well, in my humble opinion, There should be a way to go about this to ensure the proper aircraft and equipment make it into the proper settings and maps. We can do this by assigning the actual service dated of the aircraft and equipment to a timeline which will allow the use of certain map/aircraft combinations depending on the time period being simulated. We could also have this feature selectible in the UI to turn it off so everyone could have their "sandbox" to play around with.

Following that logic we would have 8 different installs of DCS currently. Also it is a fallacy, because in order for modules to be compatible between the two, they both have to be using the same code version.

 

So basically what seems to be doing is Duplicating DCS - just for providing Alternate GUI's. It doesn't make sense to me at all. There are better ways to distinguish between the Two products than to have 2 installs that are 99% the same.

 

IMO (not that that means much) WW2 should be following the modular approach we already have, with maybe it's own GUI resources as part of the WW2 module for the DCS core. Start with the DCS:WW2 icon? Arrive in a WW2 GUI customised for WW2. Start with DCS World Icon, arrive in the GUI we have now.

 

Each GUI will allow switching between both modes. This Would affect what is available in the ME too, related to time period. With another free for all mode, where anything goes, all modules and Time periods enabled for selection.

 

It has already been said that this will sort of be possible in either World or WW2 so why would I want to install both? Why separate them? It would be better to have them auto select WW2 or other GUI, on install depending on what the user believes they are downloading. DCS remains the same underneath.

 

Nate

Well, it has been said it is a separate install already, but what I feel it will be a modular install into DCS World where once you are in the GUI you can select DCS World Multi-player or select DCS WWII Multi-player..

Only Luthier1 knows for sure how this will come about ... so this is all speculation..we only can wait to see what happens...and while we wait..the bickering will go on and on...

Done for now...:music_whistling:

It will be awhile for any results anyways...:doh:

Well, it has been said it is a separate install already, but what I feel it will be a modular install into DCS World where once you are in the GUI you can select DCS World Multi-player or select DCS WWII Multi-player..

 

So you are saying that you 'feel' that even though they said it was a separate install, they did not really mean it.

So you are saying that you 'feel' that even though they said it was a separate install, they did not really mean it.

Only Luthier1 hair dresser will know for sure...

I think now its best for him to fully explain..DCS/Luthier1 plans will be on it...

82 pages worth of the perfect example why Devs don't share information. 90% is complaining with "I'm looking forward to this" and small updates from the Devs sprinkled in.

Yes it appears DCS WWII will be a separate install but it also appears that those items available for DCS WWII CAN be installed into DCS World as we know it now.

Why doesn't everyone relax, lets wait and see.

I actually have not seen that much 'complaining'. Mostly I see three things, people posting without reading, people expressing their opinion regarding separate installs and people expressing their excitement.

" DCS WWII: Europe 1944 will boast an all-new EDGE landscape engine, as well as many new and updated features "

 

Oh , I thought they've said that WWII will feature a newer updated version of the game engine :huh:

Game engine includes a lot more than landscape. It consists of multiple modules. GUI, vehicles, aircraft, weather, etc. We're just taking the old landscape module and swapping it out for EDGE, but the rest is all the same.

Does RRG Studios have a website?

Not at this time.

There is an unpleasant issue that has to do with using the name of the old game series I've worked on. Can't really have a site that says "well we worked on something, but we can't tell you the name of the project or show any screenshots."

We'll have something once kickstarter hits. It'll only be about DCS WWII and the future.

Since your team is a 3rd party developer, would it make DCS WWII world open for 4th party content?

If a team decides to make a study level plane, that's not on your list, would it be compatible with your world?

Anything that's compatible with DCS is compatible with DCS WWII by definition.

There are a lot of people already making WWII stuff in addition to ourselves. We'll need some sort of a plan for sharing things with 4th parties to make sure there are no parallel developments on one hand, and things are getting done on the other.

Only Luthier1 hair dresser will know for sure...

 

I think now its best for him to fully explain..DCS/Luthier1 plans will be on it...

Guys, can you please stop fighting about the separate installs?

It's one thing to discuss it with me. I'll be glad to answer questions or entertain ideas. But it's absolutely pointless to get riled up and argue with each other.

Think about this not from the point of you of today, but five years from now. DCS WWII has grown to include Pacific, Mediterranean, Korea, I don't know. DCS World has Nevada, a whole bunch of other maps, and a huge line-up of new aircraft.

The number of fans that own the entire product line will number in the single digits.

But if we were to keep everything as a single install, then the number of people that have to download and keep content they never use would be huge!

Ummm, I know there is a lot to be emotional about but did anyone see this detail!!!!?

...now with the P-51 and Dora already done...

Guys, can you please stop fighting about the separate installs?

Will there be night-fighters later on, like the Ju 88G or He 219?

The number of fans that own the entire product line will number in the single digits.

Regarding the entirety of DCS World and DCS WWII, you might be right, but regarding the number of people who will own both core games, I suspect you are extremely underestimating your audience.

Luthier, I'm, glad to see you back in the saddle, and this is a terrific product to be developing for.

Out of Curiosity, the P-51D and FW-190 Modules that are available for DCS, will those be incorporated into your DCS: WWII 1944?

Luthier, it seems you are planning a whole bunch of aircraft already...

Seeing as there will be so many, are we looking at simplifications here as in DCS: Flaming Cliffs, or will each and every single plane have a fully clickable cockpit, realistic systems and functions including engine management and an advanced flight model?

Regarding the entirety of DCS World and DCS WWII, you might be right, but regarding the number of people who will own both core games, I suspect you are extremely underestimating your audience.

This !!!

There is a whole lot more grey than there is distinct black and white.

MadCat

Thanks for your answers.

But if we were to keep everything as a single install, then the number of people that have to download and keep content they never use would be huge!

Wouldn't it be possible to let the choice between "install in curent DCS" or "install a new DCS" to the buyers at the install ?

I agree...

Guys, can you please stop fighting about the separate installs?

 

It's one thing to discuss it with me. I'll be glad to answer questions or entertain ideas. But it's absolutely pointless to get riled up and argue with each other.

My original post:

 

One thing I found about here..is someone is always bitching about what they want...and not would be good for ED/DCS and the community...

 

ED/DCS and 3rd party developers have enough of a time getting the product out let alone listen to every word of complaint out there..

 

You know they could always just say " Screw it! " and stop everything all together...so relax..if you don't like this or that..well don't buy it...no one is forcing you to purchase anything anywhere..you have the choice......

 

 

I for one like the direction ED/DCS and what the 3rd party developers are doing...I don't intend to maybe purchase every module that comes out .. but would consider what excites me the most...

 

I would say thats my " Two Cents " but our government eliminated the penny..so this is my nickle worth...

 

i'am normaly no WWII -stuff fan but i think this project is a realy good thing because i bet the DCS Engine will profit alot of the bigger circle of _competent_ programmers and also due to the broader range of customers which will jump on the WWII - train.

I'am curiously awaiting the Kickstarter campaign : )

Decision has been made, period.

I like it when people rush to say "period" after forcing a conclusion on a decision... makes them look very strong.. almost intimidating :D .

The number of fans that own the entire product line will number in the single digits.

I don't know how to take this other than very low expectations from your side Luthier.

If you succeed in your project many many people will have modules from all the theaters and more than single digits all the modules. You should not sub-estimate the power of OCD :) . At that point... many will simply want the Sandbox that covers all. Because if 20 friends get drunk one night and make a "free for all night" even if they don't have all the modules they overlap sufficient enough for a big match. This happens with current modules also.

And then... If one wants to hunt some French tanks from DCS World with a Su-25T while dodging some Mirage2000 over Normandy in a parallel Cold War era future... they will be thinking at you. I know I will... :D

Regarding the entirety of DCS World and DCS WWII, you might be right, but regarding the number of people who will own both core games, I suspect you are extremely underestimating your audience.

That's exactly what I said above :)

What happens if we release, say, a G4M Betty for DCS WWII. You already bought the F6F but you have no interest in the Betty so you don't buy it. What happens when you go online with someone who owns the Betty? You gotta be able to do it, right? So you've gotta see that Betty, right, just not fly it? And the Betty owner, if he never bought that F6F, has to be able to see you dive on him out of the sun for just a split second before he explodes, right?

Now extrapolate that to modern jets. See where I'm going with this?

Out of Curiosity, the P-51D and FW-190 Modules that are available for DCS, will those be incorporated into your DCS: WWII 1944?

Of course! How can we possibly have 1944 Europe without a P-51!

Think about this not from the point of you of today, but five years from now. DCS WWII has grown to include Pacific, Mediterranean, Korea, I don't know. DCS World has Nevada, a whole bunch of other maps, and a huge line-up of new aircraft.

Now that would be absolutely awesome. I would love to see the Pacific done again!

Excellent news Luthier! Thanks

Just have to suppress our patience - or impatience. :)

Just to be clear, although I suspect the P-51 will be in the initial package, if it weren't would we be able to use our DCSW P51D or is it a complete re-vamp of the existing one? In fact that question applies to all DCSW aircraft.

Now that would be absolutely awesome. I would love to see the Pacific done again!

Yeaaaa ! A nice F4U Corsair on a nice carrier ! :thumbsup:

That's exactly what I said above :)

 

What happens if we release, say, a G4M Betty for DCS WWII. You already bought the F6F but you have no interest in the Betty so you don't buy it. What happens when you go online with someone who owns the Betty? You gotta be able to do it, right? So you've gotta see that Betty, right, just not fly it? And the Betty owner, if he never bought that F6F, has to be able to see you dive on him out of the sun for just a split second before he explodes, right?

 

Now extrapolate that to modern jets. See where I'm going with this?

But the solution is already in DCS World. We don't need to have all modules to see each other. And the game only loads the assets it needs for the mission at play. :joystick: