Air-to-air refueling

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuvd7LJyIpk

That's where I am now, I'll keep practicing. I think it's going to be very hard to stay connected!

Just a bit more easy on the throttle.

Get a feel for the delay between throttle movement and speed.

And less stick movement.

Fine trim the plane all the time.

So far it's pretty good.

Only a little more practice.

And... sing! :D

if you have a split throttle, try "walking" them (instead of using both in sync, use a little bit on one or back one off a bit for instance)

if you have a split throttle, try "walking" them (instead of using both in sync, use a little bit on one or back one off a bit for instance)

Sadly I don't have a split throttle. I was trying to increase throttle when I needed to get closer for a second and then turn it back to where it was before I'd even saw it was moving (to counter for the throttle lag). I think I was increasing and decreasing by too much though, as you can probably hear in the engine sound. I was adding maybe 3-5% and then back down again.

Not quite! The situation you describe with right rudder would actually cause a roll to the left, not the right. The reason you get a roll to the right in practice is because a yaw to the right will cause the right wing to move slower through the air than the left. As such, the right wing will lose some lift and the left wing will gain some lift which will induce a roll to the right. This effect is much stronger than that caused by the rudders not being spaced equally.

That sounds very plausible. Good to know, thanks! :thumbup:

The hardest part for me is the canopy frame. I'm used to the F-16's unobstructed view of the tanker.

Unobstructed view is a fine thing, but the frame can be a big help in adding a visual reference. I'd say it's a matter of practice as much as preference.

Besides, I like being able to actually see the boom in the A-10 (even though I'm just beginning to not chase it anymore :)). Using only the signal lights as reference in Falcon always made refueling really hard for me.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uuvd7LJyIpk

 

That's where I am now, I'll keep practicing. I think it's going to be very hard to stay connected!

Keep going. That looks a lot better already! :thumbup:

best approach is online with a country buddy as observation. (<100 ms ping)

Unobstructed view is a fine thing, but the frame can be a big help in adding a visual reference. I'd say it's a matter of practice as much as preference.

Absolutely. Problem for me comes in the turn. With an unobstructed view I can see the tanker's wings and when he turns I match his wings. From my POV in the warthog the canopy frame blocks most of the view of the tanker's wings. I may have to lean forward to get a better look.

Anyone else not getting the "transfer Complete" message when you have finished refueling?

I get to 11,000lbs and have to disconnect myself, once I've realised I'm full.

In addition to all the great advice. Thought I would add a reference photo I got from the forums which really helped me get set in the right position.

I also found that freezing TIR helped a lot.

(Apologies to who ever made the sketch for not adding the recognition)

im hosting an air 2 air refuling practice now if anybody wants to come along

To reinforce what others have already said...

1) Ideally you'd pace the tanker on the wing first to identify a speed. Knowing exactly what the tanker is doing gives you a much better idea of how much or how little you need to adjust your throttle as you approach. Fly formation with him for a few minutes before pre-contact...

2) Trim Trim Trim Trim. It's going to require constant attention as you speed up and slow down. Often I'll set the trim while I'm flying alongside (with the fuel door open) at the proper speed... when I'm approaching I might need to feather the stick a little but as I close to connection speed the trim is dead on without needing to mess around. My trimming now, however, is very easy and reflexive... so I just trim as necessary throughout the operation.

3) We lack an ability to sense the increase and decrease in speed of our aircraft- until we see the HUD indicator start to go up or down. At that point you've actually already started to move faster or slower than what is indicated... so you end up chasing the speedo while having to frantically adjust your trim because you're always 1 step behind. So you have to make some of these adjustments in advance and "anticipate" what the aircraft is DOING before you can detect that the change is required. If you could feel it in your seat, you could do this. This will come with practice and a level of comfort with the operation.

4) Locking the view is a suggestion I've seen a lot- but I've never used it to try and preserve the realism a bit. It is helpful for some.

5) Someone awhile ago suggested that I slightly deploy speed brakes to help dampen the throttle response. Perhaps it was a bit of placebo- but I do it at every hookup and though I'm no master of it by any stretch I'm comfortable with grabbing a quarter tank at a time. That combined with split throttle (which I realize you don't have) allows for EXTREMELY minute speed corrections.

6) Once you have hooked up- you'll have been moving into the tanker to close the distance with the boom. Without a reduction of throttle in advance- you'll likely "run down" the boom and overshoot causing an overly aggressive reduction in throttle... Then as you drop back you'll over correct the increase in throttle... resulting in the breakaway.

Anticipating this in advance and pulling the throttle back ever so slightly before contact will help you meet the tanker speed once you're connected. I do find I get some "push back" from the boom once I'm connected, necessitating a slight readjustment of throttle up. I'm also quite certain that as you take on fuel and your aircraft weight increases that you need to bump your speed up in slight increments.

Sorry- nothing really that new in my post... but hopefully it's helped to reinforce some lessons others have already learned.

3 hours? More like 3 weeks of daily practice to get even latched... Set curves for your stick.

I've played quite a bit since the initial post in this topic and have managed to take about a quarter of a tank on my best effort - definitely getting better with practice :)

I don't understand how anyone does this. I can never get the plane as stable as I see in the videos. When I work the throttles a 10 knot difference can add or subtract 5 degrees of pitch which will then require me to move the stick on both the X and Y axis to steady the plane. I can hold it for maybe 30-40 seconds but there is no way I can hold it for the 6-7 minutes required to fill the tank.

Is this even possible with a cheap non-FF stick?

One reason is the hardware. If you use a stick equipped with potentiometers it is likely, that after a while the calibration is off the limits. This is caused by dirt on the resistor surfaces. The result is, that you experience spikes which end in uncontrolled movements around the axes. The Thrustmaster HOTAS is equipped with hall effect sensors. So this effect does not happen.

The other reason is trimming. If the aircraft is not trimmed perfectly , you have no chance to hold your position stable. All the rest is training.

Regards

Mike

Is this even possible with a cheap non-FF stick?

I don't think Force Feedback has anything to do with it.

As towsim said, it really depends on the pots and their accuracy. If there are uncontrollable spikes, AAR is next to impossible, but if you're lucky the pots can be cleaned. That turned my old Cougar from a nightmare into a pretty decent stick, and all I used to clean the inside of the pots were some Q-tips.

When I work the throttles a 10 knot difference can add or subtract 5 degrees of pitch [...]

10 knots, holy cow! Near the contact you should match the tanker's speed as closely as possible. 5 knots is way too much difference already, and if you accelerate (or decelerate) 10 knots, it indicates overcompensating and/or really bad hardware.

But independent of hardware, AAR looked like that for all of us when we first tried it. It really takes a lot of practice even with perfect hardware. Just check YouTube, it's full of clips of RL fighter pilots and trainees going crazy on their first AARs. Throw in some turbulence, and it's a challenge even for veteran pilots. Just keep practicing. :thumbup:

I'll wager that even a guy who tanks routinely in a10s in rl will think doing it in the sim with no sense of accel / decel is more challenging than in the pit purely from a motor skills meets sensory perception perspective. Not saying we're more hardcore than them- but it takes a different kind of control to manage refueling purely through the visual sense.

If they're wobbling all over the place so much that they actually can feel the acceleration, I'd wager they wouldn't be able to get much refueling done…

I'll wager that even a guy who tanks routinely in a10s in rl will think doing it in the sim with no sense of accel / decel is more challenging than in the pit purely from a motor skills meets sensory perception perspective. Not saying we're more hardcore than them- but it takes a different kind of control to manage refueling purely through the visual sense.

One of the hardest things is not having peripheral vision as we do in the real world.

Just wondering, I use a standard mission that I use from another guy on here (can't remember his name) where you start the process only a couple of hundred metres behind the tanker. I made another 2 versions of this missions to keep my practice up - day (original), evening (just after sunset) and night. Although I was wondering how I go about adding differing weather systems to make the mission more dificult. I've not done any mission editor work before so is there an easy way to do this? Ta

My first attempt at this today doh hit the tanker oops and damaged it.

And there i was thinking it can't be as hard as everyone is saying how wrong i was.

Although i did notice a little flap helps stabilise you in the turbulant air behind the tanker.

Well I finally got a full tank after several disconnects and about 25 minutes behind the tanker. 20/20 curves. Helps to focus on the velocity vector then the boom color when connected.

I still feel like the boom should have a stabilizing effect. In RL it would give you some resistance.

Congrats,

Great feeling the first time you hear "You're taking fuel"

Even better when you manage to fill the tank

The first several times I succeeded I felt like I ran a marathon. Each time you get more tense and it gets a little easier.

My arm was so tired from being tense for so long! Yeah it was a good feeling. I'm going to try and pull out some SP missions and see how well those results translate.

My first attempt at this today doh hit the tanker oops and damaged it.

And there i was thinking it can't be as hard as everyone is saying how wrong i was.

Although i did notice a little flap helps stabilise you in the turbulant air behind the tanker.

If you're able to get your flaps out you may be running it a little slow...