SU-25T ECM pods

Hawk, Kub, and maybe S-125 (although the latter seems to have a hilariously low range in this game, so idk).

 

Edit, scratch that, Hawk launches at 27km regardless. Maybe try it at higher altitudes, so they can launch from beyond burn-through range?

Edited January 15, 2013 by maturin

Ok so to summarize my findings:

 

SA-11 (average skill) @ 3,500m

 

 

 

WITHOUT JAMMERS

 

Radar contact at 84Km

Locked on and fired at 26Km

 

 

WITH JAMMERS

 

Same

 

 

 

Repeated with SA-11 system on Excellent skill, exact same results

 

--------------------------------------

 

 

PATRIOT missile system (same set up)

 

WITHOUT JAMMERS

 

Locked at 54km

Fired at 45km

 

 

Exact same results with Jammers on, and with Patriot on excellent

 

 

---------------------------------------

 

OSA @ 1,900m

 

It acts weird because:

 

RWR contact at 24km

Locked at 14km

He then UN-locks you and turns off radar completely, then engages you at 4-3km

 

Same results with with jammers and excellent skill AND HIGHER ALTITUDE to account for EOS system.

 

 

-------------------------------------

 

KUB @1,900m

 

This was peculiar:

 

WITHOUT JAMMERS

Locked at 28km

Launched at 20Km

 

 

WITH JAMMERS

Locked at 28Km

Launch at 21Km (Lol, he gains a Km with jammers on lols)

 

--------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Conclusion: Basically everything that has been said here. On the Frogfoot, the two jammer pods are just sitting pretty on your wings. That's it. So from now on, don't bother putting them on, unless you are gonna use it against aircraft.

 

 

 

 

Have not repeated the test with an A-10 yet, but if I get around to it, I will post my findings.

Excellant report , thanks for taking the time to check this out .

I'm curious if the SA-6 has similar results.

I'm curious if the SA-6 has similar results.

 

Apparently it does:

 

KUB @1,900m

 

This was peculiar:

 

WITHOUT JAMMERS

Locked at 28km

Launched at 20Km

 

 

WITH JAMMERS

Locked at 28Km

Launch at 21Km (Lol, he gains a Km with jammers on lols)

Bah. Confused it with the SA-11.

Ok here is the update with the same setups done on an A-10C with jammer pods at 6 thousand feet. When i used jammers, I forced the jammers every time they would turn off, since some systems do not lock you and the ECM turns off. When I got close to the launch point, I made sure the ECM was definitely running (Correct jammer type was used "SAM-1 or SAM-2 type" and popping chaff to see if it helped (it did not). Chaff only helped defeat certain missiles once they were already airborne.

 

-------------------------------------------------

SA-10 (Expert)

 

Without jammer:

Radar picked up at around 70 miles

Launched at 30 miles

 

WITH jammer:

Same result

 

 

-------------------------------------------

 

SA-11 (Expert)

 

Fired at 15 miles (With and without jammers)

 

--------------------------------------------

 

 

SA-15 (Standard)

 

 

Without jammers:

Radar picked up at 15 miles

Fired at 5.5 miles

 

 

With Jammers:

Radar picked up at 11 miles

Fired at 5.5 miles

 

--------------------------------------------

 

SA-3

 

Locked at 19 miles

Fired at 7 miles

 

same with and without jammers

 

-----------------------------------------

 

SA-6

 

Locked at (far far away)

Fired at 14 miles

 

same with and without jammers

 

 

------------------------------------------

 

SA-8

 

Fired at 3.5 miles

same with and without jammers

 

 

 

-----------------------------------------------------

 

 

 

 

 

 

NOTE: We experimented with altitude engagements, but it made no difference.

The only time altitude was a factor, was when we tried LOW LEVEL engagements.

The SA-11 site did not launch when that low at all, got to the site itself.

However it had nothing to do with the ECM. We tried it with them on, and off, it made no difference in that situation.

 

 

NOTE 2: We also experimented with setting the SA-11 site to normal from expert. Engagement range difference was 1 mile only, no difference ECM wise.

Edited January 25, 2013 by ralfidude

Data from ALQ-131 Jammer Test

 

This is a plot of engagement range for various threats. The range given is the range that the first SAM was fired at. Test results were conclusive and jammers are completely ineffective in DCS.

 

Thanks for working out the jammer effectiveness or lack of it as the case may be.

 

So to confirm I have read through this correctly. Jammers may have some effectiveness for Air to Air engagements but are totally ineffective against SAM's.

that is correct.

 

 

As far as we are concerned as players, don't even use it for A-A.

 

You will be a shining beacon of light to all enemy fighters, and it won't help you if a fighter is chasing you, as he's closing in at over 400 knots. You are dead one way or the other hahaha.

 

Instead, equip more aim 9s. God only knows I have run into cases where I ran out and needed more.

OSA @ 1,900m

 

It acts weird because:

 

RWR contact at 24km

Locked at 14km

He then UN-locks you and turns off radar completely, then engages you at 4-3km

I've seen that behavior too. It might be because the Osa is equipped with an EO tracker as well as the Land Roll engagement radar, so it doesn't have to keep the target painted in order for the missiles to home in. The missiles are RF CLOS (i.e, Radio Frequency Command to Line-of-Sight) after all, just like the Tunguska. It also explains why chaff is freaking useless against an SA-8 missile in the air.

 

Seriously, in my experience, if an SA-8 catches you in its NEZ, you might as well eject early.

Have anyone tested this as ground units against player air-units? I just tried to lock a player in a Su-25T and ECM (I assume but I don't know as the server had external views locked) while i was in a SA-19 and the counter went to zero and then it lost the lock. He was within weapon range as shown on the map.

in CA there is no radar. You are basically using EOS...

That's a bit disappointing that jammers do not work.

Hopefully,they will some day.

That's a bit disappointing that jammers do not work.

 

Of course they work - what gave you the idea that they don't?

 

Keep in mind that the Jammer pods are not an invincible shield - the SAM radar merely burns through the ECM before launch.

And therein lies the problem. When you compare to what it should do, it simply does not work. When an ALQ-131 can't even break the lock from an SA-3, there is something rather wrong.

 

Even throwing actual ECM functions aside, and using some extra simplistic game ECM, "burn through" shouldn't be happening at exactly the same range a given SAM would try and lock you anyway.

Here is another post that might shed some light on the subject:

 

ECM & Standoff Jamming capabilities

 

This post basically indicates that ECM is not even modeled in DCS

Of course they work - what gave you the idea that they don't?

 

Keep in mind that the Jammer pods are not an invincible shield - the SAM radar merely burns through the ECM before launch.

I never said they were invincible shields. I just thought they did something... but they don't. I just felt like a fool. :D I think they did something in Falcon 4.0.. decreased overall launch range of SAM's and made them easier to spoof. But i understand why they don't work.. these things are highly classified; and when i say that, i mean the upmost classified. There's basically no information on any jamming pods... how they work, what they do to radars.. etc.

There's basically no information on any jamming pods... how they work, what they do to radars.. etc.

 

Not at all true, there is plenty of information on ECM out there in the public domain. In fact there is more information than you would ever need to know to produce a very realistic ECM implementation in a flight simulator.

 

What ECM does and how it does it is not at all protected, it's just physics after all. What is protected, and very highly protected as you suggest, is exactly how a given ECM system counters a given threat system, how many threat systems a given ECM system can counter and how effective an ECM system is against a specific threat. But you don't need that info to simulate ECM/ECCM anymore than you need to know exactly how a given aircraft's RWR system operates to simulate it.

Of course they work - what gave you the idea that they don't?

 

Keep in mind that the Jammer pods are not an invincible shield - the SAM radar merely burns through the ECM before launch.

 

You can't say that ECM pod works as intended if they have no effect on when a SAM lock you up.

 

Just go through ralfi's list.

 

Almost all (except 1) of them showed no change in behavior flying with or without ECM pod. Locked at the same range and launched at the same range. If there is no benefit of fitting one, what's the point?

You can't say that ECM pod works as intended if they have no effect on when a SAM lock you up.

 

What does it matter when a SAM locks you up? Why is that important in the greater scheme of things, especially considering that even the A-10 can undertake DEAD missions against all SHORAD with impunity In-SIM?

 

What is important from the SAM's perspective is when he can launch. More to the point, when he launches he must be sure of the kill, otherwise why bother?

 

It is simple:

 

At the range when a SAM will launch and be 99.9% certain of a kill, ECM is useless. At that range (where a kill is virtually ensured) ECM will not help you - as I said, ECM is not an invincible shield. And no, do not go around comparing the effects of ECM on a Jurassic-era SA-3 SAM system. If one wants to argue reality, start with the SA-22.

 

If there is no benefit of fitting one, what's the point?

 

There is - depends on the mission you fly. You definitely want to utilize ECM in an Air to Air environment.

What does it matter when a SAM locks you up? Why is that important in the greater scheme of things, especially considering that even the A-10 can undertake DEAD missions against all SHORAD with impunity In-SIM?

 

It matters a great deal when a given system locks you up, because that is the point at which a self protection jammer such as the ALQ-131 comes into play, they don't do a damn thing up until that point.

 

Once a threat system begins tracking a given aircraft, its SPJ will kick into action and act to cause the threat system to loose the lock, using one or more of a variety of techniques. If the threat system drops lock the SPJ goes back into stand-by, until said threat (or another threat) attempts to gain another lock.

 

If the SPJ determines it cannot effectively counter the threat, it may not even try.

 

What is important from the SAM's perspective is when he can launch. More to the point, when he launches he must be sure of the kill, otherwise why bother?

 

Why bother? How about because it forces the target to go defensive. A SAMs batteries job is simply to protect it's patch of sky and any potential targets contained within by preventing hostile aircraft from operating in that airspace. While destroying any hostile aircraft entering said airspace is the surest method of doing so, simply forcing any aircraft to turn around and leave the airspace, probably having jettisoned their ordnance in order to defeat a missile is equally effective.

 

It is simple:

 

It really isn't.

 

At the range when a SAM will launch and be 99.9% certain of a kill, ECM is useless. At that range (where a kill is virtually ensured) ECM will not help you -

 

Not necessarily. It very much depends on the ECM suite and threat system(s) in question, a modern ECM suite operating against an older generation SAM system may be able to deny a launch altogether, or at least a launch utilizing RADAR guidance. That's why so many Russian SAM systems have backup optical command guidance systems.

 

In the case of modern SAMs with the necessary ECCM capabilities however it is indeed quite possible that they can defeat most ECM techniques.

 

as I said, ECM is not an invincible shield.

 

I have never seen anyone claim it is. At least nobody who has the first clue about it.

 

And no, do not go around comparing the effects of ECM on a Jurassic-era SA-3 SAM system. If one wants to argue reality, start with the SA-22.

 

Ok that statement is a tad bizarre. There are still a considerable number of SA-3s and systems of the same era in operation today and they are far more likely to be encountered than the SA-22. The effect a modern ECM suite has on an older threat system does indeed very much matter, because said ECM suite should be very capable of defeating an older system. Where it should be far less effective, or perhaps even totally useless, against an SA-22.

 

There is - depends on the mission you fly. You definitely want to utilize ECM in an Air to Air environment.

 

The main purpose of an aircraft ECM suite, especially SPJs, is to counter surface based threats. After all, and SPJ is less useful against a hostile aircraft that can launch a missile against you using TWS utilizing missiles with a home on jam capability. While they can be, and are, useful when it comes to countering air threats, it is far less so than against surface threat systems.

What does it matter when a SAM locks you up? Why is that important in the greater scheme of things, especially considering that even the A-10 can undertake DEAD missions against all SHORAD with impunity In-SIM?

 

This is not so much a reason not to have ECM/SOJ properly modelled as it is a indication that the ADS AI needs some improvement regarding the use of active radar.

 

Believe me, if I had my ass in that Tor/Osa I would be emitting as little as I need... definitely not 24/7 like the in-game AI... (triggers aside)

Edited January 26, 2013 by Lobo