maturin Posted January 15, 2013 Share Posted January 15, 2013 (edited) Hawk, Kub, and maybe S-125 (although the latter seems to have a hilariously low range in this game, so idk). Edit, scratch that, Hawk launches at 27km regardless. Maybe try it at higher altitudes, so they can launch from beyond burn-through range? Edited January 15, 2013 by maturin Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralfidude Posted January 21, 2013 Author Share Posted January 21, 2013 Ok so to summarize my findings: SA-11 (average skill) @ 3,500m WITHOUT JAMMERS Radar contact at 84Km Locked on and fired at 26Km WITH JAMMERS Same Repeated with SA-11 system on Excellent skill, exact same results -------------------------------------- PATRIOT missile system (same set up) WITHOUT JAMMERS Locked at 54km Fired at 45km Exact same results with Jammers on, and with Patriot on excellent --------------------------------------- OSA @ 1,900m It acts weird because: RWR contact at 24km Locked at 14km He then UN-locks you and turns off radar completely, then engages you at 4-3km Same results with with jammers and excellent skill AND HIGHER ALTITUDE to account for EOS system. ------------------------------------- KUB @1,900m This was peculiar: WITHOUT JAMMERS Locked at 28km Launched at 20Km WITH JAMMERS Locked at 28Km Launch at 21Km (Lol, he gains a Km with jammers on lols) -------------------------------------- Conclusion: Basically everything that has been said here. On the Frogfoot, the two jammer pods are just sitting pretty on your wings. That's it. So from now on, don't bother putting them on, unless you are gonna use it against aircraft. Have not repeated the test with an A-10 yet, but if I get around to it, I will post my findings. 1 [sIGPIC]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/ralfidude/redofullalmost_zpsa942f3fe.gif[/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
badger66 Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 Excellant report , thanks for taking the time to check this out . Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eihort Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I'm curious if the SA-6 has similar results. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
St3v3f Posted January 21, 2013 Share Posted January 21, 2013 I'm curious if the SA-6 has similar results. Apparently it does: KUB @1,900m This was peculiar: WITHOUT JAMMERS Locked at 28km Launched at 20Km WITH JAMMERS Locked at 28Km Launch at 21Km (Lol, he gains a Km with jammers on lols) aka: Baron [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eihort Posted January 23, 2013 Share Posted January 23, 2013 Bah. Confused it with the SA-11. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralfidude Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 (edited) Ok here is the update with the same setups done on an A-10C with jammer pods at 6 thousand feet. When i used jammers, I forced the jammers every time they would turn off, since some systems do not lock you and the ECM turns off. When I got close to the launch point, I made sure the ECM was definitely running (Correct jammer type was used "SAM-1 or SAM-2 type" and popping chaff to see if it helped (it did not). Chaff only helped defeat certain missiles once they were already airborne. ------------------------------------------------- SA-10 (Expert) Without jammer: Radar picked up at around 70 miles Launched at 30 miles WITH jammer: Same result ------------------------------------------- SA-11 (Expert) Fired at 15 miles (With and without jammers) -------------------------------------------- SA-15 (Standard) Without jammers: Radar picked up at 15 miles Fired at 5.5 miles With Jammers: Radar picked up at 11 miles Fired at 5.5 miles -------------------------------------------- SA-3 Locked at 19 miles Fired at 7 miles same with and without jammers ----------------------------------------- SA-6 Locked at (far far away) Fired at 14 miles same with and without jammers ------------------------------------------ SA-8 Fired at 3.5 miles same with and without jammers ----------------------------------------------------- NOTE: We experimented with altitude engagements, but it made no difference. The only time altitude was a factor, was when we tried LOW LEVEL engagements. The SA-11 site did not launch when that low at all, got to the site itself. However it had nothing to do with the ECM. We tried it with them on, and off, it made no difference in that situation. NOTE 2: We also experimented with setting the SA-11 site to normal from expert. Engagement range difference was 1 mile only, no difference ECM wise. Edited January 25, 2013 by ralfidude [sIGPIC]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/ralfidude/redofullalmost_zpsa942f3fe.gif[/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AFAlinebacker42 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Data from ALQ-131 Jammer Test This is a plot of engagement range for various threats. The range given is the range that the first SAM was fired at. Test results were conclusive and jammers are completely ineffective in DCS. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sarge55 Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Thanks for working out the jammer effectiveness or lack of it as the case may be. So to confirm I have read through this correctly. Jammers may have some effectiveness for Air to Air engagements but are totally ineffective against SAM's. [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] i7 10700K OC 5.1GHZ / 500GB SSD & 1TB M:2 & 4TB HDD / MSI Gaming MB / GTX 1080 / 32GB RAM / Win 10 / TrackIR 4 Pro / CH Pedals / TM Warthog Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralfidude Posted January 25, 2013 Author Share Posted January 25, 2013 that is correct. As far as we are concerned as players, don't even use it for A-A. You will be a shining beacon of light to all enemy fighters, and it won't help you if a fighter is chasing you, as he's closing in at over 400 knots. You are dead one way or the other hahaha. Instead, equip more aim 9s. God only knows I have run into cases where I ran out and needed more. [sIGPIC]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/ralfidude/redofullalmost_zpsa942f3fe.gif[/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoCarrier Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 OSA @ 1,900m It acts weird because: RWR contact at 24km Locked at 14km He then UN-locks you and turns off radar completely, then engages you at 4-3km I've seen that behavior too. It might be because the Osa is equipped with an EO tracker as well as the Land Roll engagement radar, so it doesn't have to keep the target painted in order for the missiles to home in. The missiles are RF CLOS (i.e, Radio Frequency Command to Line-of-Sight) after all, just like the Tunguska. It also explains why chaff is freaking useless against an SA-8 missile in the air. Seriously, in my experience, if an SA-8 catches you in its NEZ, you might as well eject early. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RagnarDa Posted January 25, 2013 Share Posted January 25, 2013 Have anyone tested this as ground units against player air-units? I just tried to lock a player in a Su-25T and ECM (I assume but I don't know as the server had external views locked) while i was in a SA-19 and the counter went to zero and then it lost the lock. He was within weapon range as shown on the map. DCS AJS37 HACKERMAN There will always be bugs. If everything is a priority nothing is. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralfidude Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 in CA there is no radar. You are basically using EOS... 1 [sIGPIC]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/ralfidude/redofullalmost_zpsa942f3fe.gif[/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilky510 Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 That's a bit disappointing that jammers do not work. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
falcon_120 Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Hopefully,they will some day. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 That's a bit disappointing that jammers do not work. Of course they work - what gave you the idea that they don't? Keep in mind that the Jammer pods are not an invincible shield - the SAM radar merely burns through the ECM before launch. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 And therein lies the problem. When you compare to what it should do, it simply does not work. When an ALQ-131 can't even break the lock from an SA-3, there is something rather wrong. Even throwing actual ECM functions aside, and using some extra simplistic game ECM, "burn through" shouldn't be happening at exactly the same range a given SAM would try and lock you anyway. Spoiler Intel 13900K (5Ghz), 64Gb 6400Mhz, MSi RTX 3090, Schiit Modi/Magi DAC/AMP, ASUS PG43UQ, Hotas Warthog, RealSimulator FSSB3, 2x TM MFDs + DCS MFDs, MFG Crosswinds, Elgato Steamdeck XL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
spn Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Here is another post that might shed some light on the subject: ECM & Standoff Jamming capabilities This post basically indicates that ECM is not even modeled in DCS Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
wilky510 Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Of course they work - what gave you the idea that they don't? Keep in mind that the Jammer pods are not an invincible shield - the SAM radar merely burns through the ECM before launch. I never said they were invincible shields. I just thought they did something... but they don't. I just felt like a fool. :D I think they did something in Falcon 4.0.. decreased overall launch range of SAM's and made them easier to spoof. But i understand why they don't work.. these things are highly classified; and when i say that, i mean the upmost classified. There's basically no information on any jamming pods... how they work, what they do to radars.. etc. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 There's basically no information on any jamming pods... how they work, what they do to radars.. etc. Not at all true, there is plenty of information on ECM out there in the public domain. In fact there is more information than you would ever need to know to produce a very realistic ECM implementation in a flight simulator. What ECM does and how it does it is not at all protected, it's just physics after all. What is protected, and very highly protected as you suggest, is exactly how a given ECM system counters a given threat system, how many threat systems a given ECM system can counter and how effective an ECM system is against a specific threat. But you don't need that info to simulate ECM/ECCM anymore than you need to know exactly how a given aircraft's RWR system operates to simulate it. Spoiler Intel 13900K (5Ghz), 64Gb 6400Mhz, MSi RTX 3090, Schiit Modi/Magi DAC/AMP, ASUS PG43UQ, Hotas Warthog, RealSimulator FSSB3, 2x TM MFDs + DCS MFDs, MFG Crosswinds, Elgato Steamdeck XL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TZeer Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 Of course they work - what gave you the idea that they don't? Keep in mind that the Jammer pods are not an invincible shield - the SAM radar merely burns through the ECM before launch. You can't say that ECM pod works as intended if they have no effect on when a SAM lock you up. Just go through ralfi's list. Almost all (except 1) of them showed no change in behavior flying with or without ECM pod. Locked at the same range and launched at the same range. If there is no benefit of fitting one, what's the point? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
159th_Viper Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 You can't say that ECM pod works as intended if they have no effect on when a SAM lock you up. What does it matter when a SAM locks you up? Why is that important in the greater scheme of things, especially considering that even the A-10 can undertake DEAD missions against all SHORAD with impunity In-SIM? What is important from the SAM's perspective is when he can launch. More to the point, when he launches he must be sure of the kill, otherwise why bother? It is simple: At the range when a SAM will launch and be 99.9% certain of a kill, ECM is useless. At that range (where a kill is virtually ensured) ECM will not help you - as I said, ECM is not an invincible shield. And no, do not go around comparing the effects of ECM on a Jurassic-era SA-3 SAM system. If one wants to argue reality, start with the SA-22. If there is no benefit of fitting one, what's the point? There is - depends on the mission you fly. You definitely want to utilize ECM in an Air to Air environment. Novice or Veteran looking for an alternative MP career? Click me to commence your Journey of Pillage and Plunder! [sIGPIC][/sIGPIC] '....And when I get to Heaven, to St Peter I will tell.... One more Soldier reporting Sir, I've served my time in Hell......' Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Eddie Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 What does it matter when a SAM locks you up? Why is that important in the greater scheme of things, especially considering that even the A-10 can undertake DEAD missions against all SHORAD with impunity In-SIM? It matters a great deal when a given system locks you up, because that is the point at which a self protection jammer such as the ALQ-131 comes into play, they don't do a damn thing up until that point. Once a threat system begins tracking a given aircraft, its SPJ will kick into action and act to cause the threat system to loose the lock, using one or more of a variety of techniques. If the threat system drops lock the SPJ goes back into stand-by, until said threat (or another threat) attempts to gain another lock. If the SPJ determines it cannot effectively counter the threat, it may not even try. What is important from the SAM's perspective is when he can launch. More to the point, when he launches he must be sure of the kill, otherwise why bother? Why bother? How about because it forces the target to go defensive. A SAMs batteries job is simply to protect it's patch of sky and any potential targets contained within by preventing hostile aircraft from operating in that airspace. While destroying any hostile aircraft entering said airspace is the surest method of doing so, simply forcing any aircraft to turn around and leave the airspace, probably having jettisoned their ordnance in order to defeat a missile is equally effective. It is simple: It really isn't. At the range when a SAM will launch and be 99.9% certain of a kill, ECM is useless. At that range (where a kill is virtually ensured) ECM will not help you - Not necessarily. It very much depends on the ECM suite and threat system(s) in question, a modern ECM suite operating against an older generation SAM system may be able to deny a launch altogether, or at least a launch utilizing RADAR guidance. That's why so many Russian SAM systems have backup optical command guidance systems. In the case of modern SAMs with the necessary ECCM capabilities however it is indeed quite possible that they can defeat most ECM techniques. as I said, ECM is not an invincible shield. I have never seen anyone claim it is. At least nobody who has the first clue about it. And no, do not go around comparing the effects of ECM on a Jurassic-era SA-3 SAM system. If one wants to argue reality, start with the SA-22. Ok that statement is a tad bizarre. There are still a considerable number of SA-3s and systems of the same era in operation today and they are far more likely to be encountered than the SA-22. The effect a modern ECM suite has on an older threat system does indeed very much matter, because said ECM suite should be very capable of defeating an older system. Where it should be far less effective, or perhaps even totally useless, against an SA-22. There is - depends on the mission you fly. You definitely want to utilize ECM in an Air to Air environment. The main purpose of an aircraft ECM suite, especially SPJs, is to counter surface based threats. After all, and SPJ is less useful against a hostile aircraft that can launch a missile against you using TWS utilizing missiles with a home on jam capability. While they can be, and are, useful when it comes to countering air threats, it is far less so than against surface threat systems. Spoiler Intel 13900K (5Ghz), 64Gb 6400Mhz, MSi RTX 3090, Schiit Modi/Magi DAC/AMP, ASUS PG43UQ, Hotas Warthog, RealSimulator FSSB3, 2x TM MFDs + DCS MFDs, MFG Crosswinds, Elgato Steamdeck XL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lobo1606688273 Posted January 26, 2013 Share Posted January 26, 2013 (edited) What does it matter when a SAM locks you up? Why is that important in the greater scheme of things, especially considering that even the A-10 can undertake DEAD missions against all SHORAD with impunity In-SIM? This is not so much a reason not to have ECM/SOJ properly modelled as it is a indication that the ADS AI needs some improvement regarding the use of active radar. Believe me, if I had my ass in that Tor/Osa I would be emitting as little as I need... definitely not 24/7 like the in-game AI... (triggers aside) Edited January 26, 2013 by Lobo Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ralfidude Posted January 26, 2013 Author Share Posted January 26, 2013 [sIGPIC]http://i17.photobucket.com/albums/b66/ralfidude/redofullalmost_zpsa942f3fe.gif[/sIGPIC] Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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